Guidelines for King Candidates?

Due to several conversations over the past few months, staff would like to get input from all players regarding a very important topic. We would like input from everyone, even if you feel it does not apply to you at this time, as it may apply to you in the future!

Do you feel there should be certain expectations of King Candidates (those who have conquered a dungeon and obtained a metal vessel)?

Regardless of yes or no, please provide a BRIEF explanation of your answer!

If yes, what type of expectations should be included? Will there be a time expectation included as well? Should they face losing their metal vessels if they fail to meet these expectations?

I'd propose a two fold standard. One on activity, another on performance.

Activity: I think it is fair to say that Zadi's actual rp activity leaves much to be desired. But by posting two or three times when an activity check comes around, he's been able to stay officially "active" and therefore did not lost his Djinn. This is very disappointing to see from a King Candidate. As such, I think that having a greater required number of posts/threads to meet "activite status" from king candidate characters would be appropriate. They would still have the same month long window to be active as normal players, and alt accounts would not need to meet the increased standard. In addition, should official outros for vacations and the like be posted then enforcement could be delayed by one or two activity checks depending on circumstance.

I'd even go so far as to say that a first offense only comes with a warning. A secondary offense however, should result in taking their Djinn and giving it to an NPC. If they return to acceptable activity, instead of getting the djinn back, I think they should be offered some kind of consolation like enough huang for a dungeon ticket or some other bonus. But if they want another Djinn they should have to go through a dungeon again of kill the NPC who has their old Djinn and take it by force.

Performance: This is a bit more tricky to grade considering it's highly subjective. But I feel a King Candidate should be expected to meet a certain expectation of plot advancement. If Yakuroro is active all month, but all my threads are joke threads and random repeatable jobs to farm exp/huang, then I don't think I'd be living up to my responsibilities. But so long as a King Candidate is advancing their plotline and character development in a meaningful way then I don't see why they should suffer consequences.

Djinn personalities and expectations seem to be getting more spotlight as of late too, so an exception might be if a player is active, but straying greatly from the path the Djinn would approve of. In the case of such an instance, I think presenting them a plot thread where they must face a crossroads IC would be best. This way the player has a choice to either abandon their djinn or to respect its wishes and change themselves.

First, I would like to thank Staff for bringing this question to the members to poll our ideas before making such a change. Yay for transparency! I'm glad that our feedback is considered.

To the matter at hand, do I feel that King Candidates should have certain expectations? I like that this is being addressed, since we have had issues in the past with certain King Candidates being told they leave much to be desired. Without any listed expectations in the systems section, I feel that is an unfair comment to be made. To me, that says that someone thinks they are better than someone else because they write more or because they have a higher writing proficiency. I have rarely seen constructive criticism given along with these statements, leaving it simply criticism. Nor have I seen any attempts to draw "inactive" King Candidates to the forefront, encouraging them to be more active. So such comments seem a waste of time and draw unnecessary frustration to those targeted.

With that said, I am torn between answering either yes or no, because it seems a dicey situation. Are we expecting these King Candidates to be like in the show and manage a country or be actively working towards that goal? Assuming that is true and there is a time expectation of activity, imagine the extra strain that would put on staff. For every inactive King Candidate's metal vessel taken, that is another NPC that has to be thought of, fleshed out with goals, desires, interests, etc and micromanaged with the PCs. If the argument is that NPCs don't have to be that fleshed out in order to maintain a metal vessel, then taking a metal vessel from a PC seems silly to me, because you would have the same periods of inactivity as before.

As to the point of requiring King Candidates to meet a higher goal of topics completed than regular members, I'm not sure I like that. For me, the forum is a place of escape, to get away from the demands of reality and live in a fantasy world, enjoyment is my goal. So when I see a recommendation of meeting a certain topic requirement, that makes it sound more like a job. People have commitments outside of the forum that are well, more important. Life happens and we get taken away from the keyboard for various reasons. By demanding a King Candidate be strapped down to the computer at the risk of losing a metal vessel that they worked hard to obtain, that doesn't sound enjoyable. That sounds like another commitment added to an already heaping pile. Especially for something they were rewarded for hard work and clearing a dungeon.

While I see merit in making sure the Kings of this world have developed storylines, performance and content of one's personal plot development is too subjective of a scale. For example, I will go through my understanding of each current King Candidate's storylines. I am not doing this to call anyone out or make anyone seem like they are doing less.

Zadi - Currently a lone wanderer, searching for his place in the world and possibly looking for an ideal to fight for. During this, he has been slowly building up his strength to hopefully use to fight for those ideals that he finds. With his curiosity piqued by Yakuroro's comments about black Rukh and the Black Djinn that attacked Heliohapt, he is searching for the truth. It has yet to be seen if Zadi will fight against the black Rukh once he learns the truth, but that is character development I am anxiously waiting for. I would go deeper into his story, but sadly I haven't read that far back in the forum's history.

Lagi - Man, what a story. Lagi El Nagi has been pooped on every step of the way from character development. From being disowned not only by his tribe, but his own father to killing his best friends. Now, through the help of two Kouen men, he sits on the throne of Reim. Since being installed on the throne, he has outlawed slavery and tried to help his people with new projects. The most recent includes using beasts to help make people's lives easier, specifically incorporating Flying Mantas to build a transportation system. He also has made up with his father and is now currently searching to obtain El Drago, the dragon he has always wanted to obtain. What happens after that? Who knows, but I am anxious to find out.

Altair - Another person whose history I am sketchy on, so I apologize if I miss something. This "simple" Shepard left the plains and his people to find himself and power to remove his uncle from leadership of his tribe. If I recall correctly, his uncle obtained it in a deceitful way. Since then, he has taken up the moniker 'The Soverign' freeing slaves in Balbadd. From there, Altair went to Heliohapt and obtained the power of a djinn in hopes that he could free more slaves. During the catastrophic events of the Slave Auction he helped guide people (slaves and freemen alike) to safety as the Sovereign. He has also studied the Toran language. After a quick stop in Reim, he is now in Imuchakk. He noticed that the tribal community that the Imuchakk have could be beneficial to uniting the people of the Plains under one flag. He has requested Asisiak's tutelage to train him to be a good leader. Another story that I am eager to see progress further.

Yakuroro - The Imuchakk magician that has traveled the world as a loner, trying to fix injustices where he can. He obtained a djinn and currently fights to remove the existence of Black Rukh from this world, among other injustices. He has impersonated an Emperor, broken an acquaintance out of jail, defeated the Brotherhood of Ash's base in Kou, fought a black Djinn, among other feats that I have forgotten (I apologize). The most notable development in his plot has come of late, the loner has now obtained a band of friends, something previously unthinkable to the Imuchakk. With those friends, he has now obtained two household members and is currently escorting one through a dungeon. He has studied the Toran language. He also has offered to help Azix Niraj by overseeing his workforce program while he is out of the country on business. The bias of having a character in his household aside, this is also a story I am eager to see develop further.

Now, taking each King Candidates' plots in mind, how does one decide "performance"? Each of these storylines I personally find captivating (among other members) and I follow most if not every thread. If you want to look at it from an angle that King Candidates should be actively trying to lead a country, is not every King Candidate doing that in some fashion? From that list, one could pick out Zadi and say he's not doing that, but I disagree. Is not finding what you BELIEVE in and VALUE the first step on the path of leadership? I wouldn't enjoy a story where the main character is hardly fleshed out and just aims to lead because it is expected of him. In my eyes, each of the active King Candidates are meeting my performance scale, even if they are at different stages of growth.

This leads me to my dilemma, should King Candidates lose a metal vessel due to feeling uninspired, unguided, or busy? I vote no. Writing such a well developed storyline takes time, dedication and the correct pacing. Life doesn't always allow that and I don't think we should fault someone for such. That being said, there are King Candidates from before my time that have not shown up or even peeked at the forum. That does suck, but they earned their metal vessels in one way or another. I don't think they should be taken because they lost interest in the forum. The characters are archived and that chapter has been laid to rest, so we should move on. With that, if they do come back, I think they should make an active effort to fill in the gaps and catch up with the storyline, but I wouldn't fault them if they didn't. That's a lot of work and if they don't consider history lessons fun, I can't blame them.

To summarize, I believe that a metal vessel is a reward and you should be able to keep it. I don't quite agree with enforcing expectations on King Candidates just because they have a reward, but if there are expectations I believe they should be guided rather than criticized. I believe each active King Candidate has shown more than adequate plot development and hope that they continue to do so. So in the end, I have to say, no I don't think there should be guidelines for King Candidates. But, I can agree with working with or helping a King Candidate along to be involved with more of the player base or just being involved to help develop the world further.

Bump~

Come on guys! Chances are best, you either HAVE a metal vessel, WANT one, or are in a household with a King Candidate! No ideas or input are stupid, I just want to have as much of it as possible!

Since I am the poster-boy for "inactive King Candidates that have little character development", I cannot comment on this. I will neither agree or disagree with anything that has been said. One could say that my opinion is void due to my position XD

So yeah, [+1 Comment(s)]

While i can understand wanting players who have been given rewards to be active, there is only so much we can do in that regard. I don't think the negative reinforcement that Yakuroro suggested would work very well for those of us that are legitimately trying to develop our characters. However, i do agree that at some point, measures should be taken in the event of unannounced inactivity.

I am more in line with what Azix was saying, that Metal Vessels are rewards, and should be treated like rewards instead of obligations. Many of us are spending large amounts of our free time here for the purpose of having fun, not because we have to. If it turned into that, the motivation to post would go out the window.

What i would suggest is not taking action unless the person involved can't even make it onto the Active Member List. I would say three strikes, or two consecutive months off the AML, would lead to loss of your Metal Vessel. This gives people more than enough time to get active, without the looming threat of losing your reward being constantly on the minds of the active players.

As far as activity goes, I think that they should be present in the forum. So I'll agree with Altair's suggestions (I haven't been here long enough to know the activity checks).

The only thing I think there should be some expectation for is who receives these Metal Vessels. I, personally, don't think that it should be limited to those who want to conquer/obtain a kingdom for him/her self. I think that if there is someone close to a King-to-be that wants to do as much as they can to help them succeed, they could be a possible metal vessel user instead of a household member. Say, for instance, Zadi. Zadi is a metal vessel user, but as far as I've seen, his ambition isn't to be king. Just from talks with him and Jahan in the chat box, it seems he's more of a supportive role to Jahan.

Of course, I could just be talking for no reason, and Zadi wasn't just an exception. If that's the case, then I'll go ahead and delete this afterwards. I just know that when i mused at the thought of Bahir becoming a metal vessel user, the first thing that was brought up was "Does he want to lead a country?" "Does he have the ambition to be king?"

Altair Loros wrote:While i can understand wanting players who have been given rewards to be active, there is only so much we can do in that regard.  I don't think the negative reinforcement that Yakuroro suggested would work very well for those of us that are legitimately trying to develop our characters.  However, i do agree that at some point, measures should be taken in the event of unannounced inactivity.  

I am more in line with what Azix was saying, that Metal Vessels are rewards, and should be treated like rewards instead of obligations.  Many of us are spending large amounts of our free time here for the purpose of having fun, not because we have to.  If it turned into that, the motivation to post would go out the window.

What i would suggest is not taking action unless the person involved can't even make it onto the Active Member List.  I would say three strikes, or two consecutive months off the AML, would lead to loss of your Metal Vessel.  This gives people more than enough time to get active, without the looming threat of losing your reward being constantly on the minds of the active players.

As I pointed out, the problem with the only requirement being the capacity to meet a normal Activity Check is that you only require 1 post throughout the month. This isn't really "active" at all in my opinion. 1 post a month is barely scraping by to let people know that you're still alive and that your character doesn't need to be archived.

Both you and Azix have pointed out that people come here to have fun and dedicate enough time to the forum as it is. But 1 post in an entire month is hardly any time dedicated and it isn't very much "fun" time being invested. I don't feel like a normal activity check suffices to ensure that a King Vessel is being active.

I'm fine with normal members being scarcely active if they want. But if you've gotten a metal vessel then it should be more than fair to ask you to post more than once a month.

Bahir wrote:As far as activity goes, I think that they should be present in the forum. So I'll agree with Altair's suggestions (I haven't been here long enough to know the activity checks).

The only thing I think there should be some expectation for is who receives these Metal Vessels. I, personally, don't think that it should be limited to those who want to conquer/obtain a kingdom for him/her self. I think that if there is someone close to a King-to-be that wants to do as much as they can to help them succeed, they could be a possible metal vessel user instead of a household member. Say, for instance, Zadi. Zadi is a metal vessel user, but as far as I've seen, his ambition isn't to be king. Just from talks with him and Jahan in the chat box, it seems he's more of a supportive role to Jahan.

Of course, I could just be talking for no reason, and Zadi wasn't just an exception. If that's the case, then I'll go ahead and delete this afterwards. I just know that when i mused at the thought of Bahir becoming a metal vessel user, the first thing that was brought up was "Does he want to lead a country?" "Does he have the ambition to be king?"

I agree that a King Vessel shouldn't be expected to form a Kingdom. Or rather, that while it might be one expectation someone could have for a King Vessel, it should not be a requirement. There are plenty of canon examples of characters with djinn whom serve another "king" and lack ambitions to rule their own kingdom. The entire Ren family is a glaring example of this.

But I'll repeat myself and say that I do think it's important they aren't just sitting around twiddling their thumbs doing basic jobs or joke threads just to meet activity checks only to vanish for another month.

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To Azix,

I can't argue with much of your post, but there is one point I feel merit a response.

As to the point of requiring King Candidates to meet a higher goal of topics completed than regular members, I'm not sure I like that. For me, the forum is a place of escape, to get away from the demands of reality and live in a fantasy world, enjoyment is my goal. So when I see a recommendation of meeting a certain topic requirement, that makes it sound more like a job. People have commitments outside of the forum that are well, more important. Life happens and we get taken away from the keyboard for various reasons. By demanding a King Candidate be strapped down to the computer at the risk of losing a metal vessel that they worked hard to obtain, that doesn't sound enjoyable. That sounds like another commitment added to an already heaping pile. Especially for something they were rewarded for hard work and clearing a dungeon.

I'm not sure if this is in response to my activity suggestion or not. But I feel like I should elaborate on it because you do bring up a good point. In no way, should we demand King Vessel's spend every waking moment of their free time working on the forum.

But at the same time, I'll point out once more that the activity checks only require a single post a month. I'd like to see a bit more dedication to the forum than that if you've gone through the trouble to capture a dungeon.

I'd say something along the lines of 5 posts as opposed to 1 would be a bit more appropriate. That's roughly one post a week with an extra one thrown in somewhere. I don't like how this could still be abused(someone waits till the end of the month and then does 5 100 word posts just to meet activity) but it would be a reasonable request of any of our mainly active members.

I'll also repeat that as Altair and I both have said, this policy would not need to be draconian and without tolerance. The first failure to meet activity could just come with a warning and if a player posts an outro informing staff of an extended absence then they should get a temporary free pass.

Great input guys... come on, everyone else! The more input the better. If you would rather not post it up here, feel free to shoot Garret or I a PM with what your feelings are! We just want to make sure everyone this might affect, now or in the future, has their input heard on the topic! There are no right or wrong answers here, just your feelings ^_^

Bump~

Maybe staff can add their thoughts in too?

We would like an unbiased view from the players, without interference from us :)

Ambition is something that everyone should share when becoming a king candidate. Some people could get lost in their own storyline and lose their way, jumping at the next opportunity that presents itself. For example, if I wasn’t king, I would be leading my clan, as well as amassing my own fortune of wealth and improving life for the citizens. I would indirectly be an uncrowned king, not all kings need a crown. The king of crime, etc, we don’t need royalty to fulfill quotas. Honestly, I don’t think the added stress in order to keep the djinn is needed. We all have our own individual story-lines that we would continue to tend to, with or without the Djinn.

With the new dungeons, one cool thing staff did with the Djinns that I think is ok is their own requirements as a Djinn. I think the poison one, valued friendship, and wanted to be used for a purpose. Activity can be slow sometimes and motivation can be a drag when I comes to the kick start, the reason why people don’t show up can also be because of other people. Long story short, there is a reason for everything, that’s why world plots like the one that got me status to king is imperative and allows everyone to play a role, regardless of their rank. With that being said, activity is linked to motivation, motivation towards a purpose or a new-found purpose to your character. I think we are currently fine because all of the king candidates we have now are setting a quota without even realizing after checking out what Azix put up, we all got goals or made new ones.

So I'm going to give my input now, since becoming a king candidate has always been something big to me. I do believe that King Candidates should have some expectation, not necessarily for them to be kings or to lead a country, but to somehow, in some way affect the main plot.

If there were no expectations for King Candidates, than Metal Vessels will become little more than a power up, and less plot noteworthy, which is something I would like to avoid. I dont believe in hindering any active King Candidates however. If they are making all of the activity checks, and can give you a clear plot goal for their character, then who are we to say they arent doing enough?

They would be following all the rules, they just move at a slower rate. Regardless punishing a King Candidate whose abiding by the current rules is not something I would agree upon. 

Inactive members losing their Metal Vessels however is fine to me, for all that we know they may not ever come back, and recycling djinns would be pretty efficient. Though I would agree it would be tiresome to come up with npc's to give the metal vessels to, and plots for said npc's. 

Thats about all that I have to say on this topic.

Emperor JaJa wrote:So I'm going to give my input now, since becoming a king candidate has always been something big to me. I do believe that King Candidates should have some expectation, not necessarily for them to be kings or to lead a country, but to somehow, in some way affect the main plot.

If there were no expectations for King Candidates, than Metal Vessels will become little more than a power up, and less plot noteworthy, which is something I would like to avoid. I dont believe in hindering any active King Candidates however. If they are making all of the activity checks, and can give you a clear plot goal for their character, then who are we to say they arent doing enough?

They would be following all the rules, they just move at a slower rate. Regardless punishing a King Candidate whose abiding by the current rules is not something I would agree upon. 

Inactive members losing their Metal Vessels however is fine to me, for all that we know they may not ever come back, and recycling djinns would be pretty efficient. Though I would agree it would be tiresome to come up with npc's to give the metal vessels to, and plots for said npc's. 

Thats about all that I have to say on this topic.

:o

So do you also honestly believe that a single post in a month is truly "active"? No one is responding when I bring it up so I have to assume the others think that is just fine. I have trouble believing this considering how incredibly minimal an effort that is. Until someone can explain to me how anything more than that is unfair or asking too much of someone, I'm going to keep bringing it up. We don't need to demand 10 posts a day from people. But if they are capable of meeting the one post every few days requirement of a dungeon then it should be pretty reasonable to ask that they meet a requirement of a handful of posts a month as opposed to just one.

EDIT: You also mentioned that having some kind of involvement in the main plot is somewhat expected of a candidate. Which I'll use to support my argument further. If someone is only active once a month, it is a large burden for them to keep up with main plot events since those tend to get posted in almost daily. It also makes it very difficult for them to be involved in said plot considering their once a month posts would greatly slow everyone down or make it impossible to really do anything due to being regularly skipped. By the time they are able to post again the next month, the event could be over and if not, it would have progressed so far that there might not even be a viable way for their character to stay involved.

Before this is shut down. I want to address that the posting requirement for activity checks is another matter entirely to me. I didnt ignore it earlier, i just said that i didnt think metal vessel users should be required to post more than anyone else. That being said, I would agee with everyone being required to post more to be considered active. I do see how the current requirements are low. So, maybe that should be brought up in a seperate thread.

Thank you everyone for your input so far, it is greatly appreciated, regardless of who may agree or disagree with you.

Please remember that we asked for people's opinions regarding this matter, and while open discussion is welcome, if several people have ignored your call to arms about a specific issue, I feel it is fairly safe to assume they have a different set of expectations than you.

If your issue is with the Activity Check, please feel free to begin another thread to address that matter.

If anyone else has input, please do include it. There will be staff meeting tomorrow to finalize decisions, to give you all a time frame.

Thank you for the respectful reply Azix. I still feel as though the King Candidates should have a greater activity expectation than the average member which is why I feel this is the right place to have the discussion. But at your suggestion, I've created a new thread.

https://magiworld.forumotion.com/t3076-activity-requirement-discussion#15103

I encourage everyone to join this new thread so that we can come to a fair solution that works for all the members. If you disagree that activity standards should be increased from a single post a month then please explain why and let the forum know your thoughts. It is the only way to influence a compromise and lead to more members seeing eye to eye on the issue.

EDIT: Ari posted while I was writing this. I acknowledge your suggestion and reminder. Much of what I said to Azix covers my thoughts towards your response as well.