Who is Stronger: Beast Tamers or Magicians? [DISCUSSION]

Who is stronger: the beast tamer or the magician? Currently, everyone would say magicians are the strongest out of the six classes, but is the statement really true? I believe the beast tamer is really the stronger class.

Magicians use rukh as their weapon by utilizing wands/staffs as their conduits. They have access to all eight magic types since Yaku changed the systems. This means they have no limit on how many combination magics they can create and use, making them the most versatile in utilities among other classes. Magicians also have access to a borg, a shield of magoi, that will defend them from damage equal to the magician’s tier and can use what spells associated with the shield (however none have been made to really show its usefulness.) Being able to access all magic types and the borg are basically all mages have going for them. Any traits they make are difficult to create too. Though they can be overpowered if the role-player knows what they’re doing, the beast tamer seems to offer more.

Beast tamers are able to use beasts as their weapons. There are three classifications of beasts: normal, swarm, and parasite/symbiote. Normal beasts stand alone creatures. A swarm is a collection of small organisms that act as one being. A parasite/symbiote is an animal that uses its owner as a host and can’t use offensive abilities. At Omega-Tier, a beast tamer is able to register a single legend beast, previously described as a creature of myth such as a dragon, phoenix, or otherworldly creature, which can equal Omega-tier (meaning a single Omega-Tier beast or two A-Tiers beast.) Legend beasts also receive a free Omega-tier trait created by staff with player input. The beasts also use their master’s stamina pool despite being their own entity. Finally, Beast Tamers are allowed more trait points than people because of their beasts, and are the only ones able to create and spend points on Omega-tier Traits whereas other classes must crush a SoS or wait until Omega-Tier to purchase it from Fate’s Fortune.

Lagi is currently the only Omega-Tier that is also a primary Beast Tamer, so he will be the main example used in this post. He surpassed the beast limitation stating tamers can “use beasts whose total tier is equal to Ω-tier in each thread” with a trait. The trait Dragonkin Presence allows Lagi to bring an additional A-Tier dragon into a thread along with his Omega-tier Legend Beast, Orie, without penalty. If a trait can be allowed for beast tamer’s to bring more beasts, why not allow other classes to bring additional weapons through traits as well? Instead backpacks will be used for the ability to carry more items into a thread, which breaks the intended point of the trait system’s design. Also, depending on how Lagi’s dragon will be treated, this essentially breaks the limitation that was put in place for balance reasons and makes him a bit more powerful than a normal beast tamer of the same tier.

Orie is Lagi’s legend beast. She was created by being fused with a magic tool and is under the parasite/symbiote beast category. This begs the question on whether she is a magic tool or a beast? She could be considered to be both, and currently is. Unlike other beasts that are only allowed to use stamina, Orie is able to use both magoi and stamina with her abilities thanks to her trait called Living Magic Tool.

Living Magic Tool:

Living Magic Tool states that she is treated like any other magic tool in terms of how it takes damage. Instead of dying, it is merely broken and can be repaired like a damaged Omega-tier sword. It’s unclear of whether she counts against the magic tool restrictions of bringing 5 magic tools into a thread or not, but seeing as she is considered a magic tool according to the trait, she should if Adrastos’ Shadow Wand (or any other magic weapon/tool) counts toward the magic weapon and normal weapon limit.

Host Body Manipulation, a trait that uses the Body Manipulation class as its base, costs magoi instead of stamina. Body Manipulation doesn’t use magoi, so why does this trait cost magoi? It makes no sense logically and could be considered unfair to Body Manipulators even though it’s a trait through Orie. This trait also acts as an automatic form of defense, like the magicians borg. On top of that, he has a trait that allows him to sense danger and avoid it. Already he has an ability similar to that of a magician without being one, but also two forms of defense, each blocking/evading a total of A-Tier damage. Add his ability Armor of The Lightning Dragon, which allows him to fly like Magicians at A-Tier speeds (this should be looked at again seeing as it’s a supp/off and should only do B-Tier flight and B-Tier damage). Granted he slows down if he changes direction, but can also damage.

The damage brings me to my other point. Orie is a symbiote/parasite. She is not allowed to do damage based on the beast tamer system. However because she is part magic tool, she is able to break the rule and deal damage? This blurs the line between beasts and magi tools, and causes balance issues and possibly confusion for those who are pretty strict with the rules/guidelines.

Orie also, in my opinion, has a pretty weak drawback if she is killed or injured. Lagi just loses consciousness and temporarily shares the same instense pain as Orie if she's injured. Being an Omega-Tier Legend Beast of the symbiotic/parasite family and a magic, the drawbacks should be much worse, perhaps on par with an extreme magic from a Shard of Solomon or djinn extreme magic. So, why is it that the drawback seems particularly unfitting compared to other Omega-tier abilities/traits?

Ultimately, Beast Tamers are allowed to bend the rules in such a way that other classes can’t and will probably never be able to do, least not to the extent Lagi has. This allows them to essentially be more powerful than their fellow beast tamers and other classes, even at Omega-Tier, if they decide to follow in Lagi’s footsteps or use him as an example.

This question seems more like:

"Who is Stronger: Lagi or Magicians"

It just looks like you're just nitpicking at his stuff with little mention towards the Magician side. If you have a problem with his stuff, it could have been expressed without putting him on blast like this. I know you and Voda don't particularly like Orie and I told you I would look over it.

The dragon(s) from his trait will be treated as a normal beast. They won't get anything that a normal beast couldn't get. You're comparing a Shard of Solomon trait to an item you could purchase with huang. However, other classes can already bring a great number of items to use within a thread. Beast Tamers lose some of that number because they have the class.

For example: An Omega tier Warrior can bring 4 weapons / shields into a thread at once. Coupled with Assassin can bring 5 additional weapons. A total of 9 weapons of any tier.

Would we need to look those numbers over to balance them out? Maybe. But you're explaining this like every other class and combination without beast tamer is overshadowed. I can't agree.

In my eyes, Orie counts as a beast and a magic tool. She would take up both slots. You've already made the observation that she can utilize both magoi and stamina yet you're surprised to see the psuedo borg use magoi. What?

But yes, however, it does not break the rules. She can not do direct damage as herself but since she is a magic tool, she can deal damage through those means. It could be treated as a workaround but it's her legend beast trait. They are treated like Shard of Solomon traits in good measure.

I think the drawback is fine. Do you know how quick I could kill Lagi, or anyone, if they were knocked unconscious? Even if he didn't knock himself unconscious, the pain received could kill him depending on how severe. You think it's weak but if he is fighting someone with the intent to kill, passing out = death.

Considering the man has a legend beast that is well developed, yeah. Of course he has an upper edge over other beast tamers. Orie hardly bends any rules aside from being a magic tool and being able to deal damage through it. And bringing an additional beast into a thread through a character trait is okay with me. Would I get it? Probably not. But it hasn't killed anyone yet (not that it would).

I can agree that Beast Tamers are arguably as versatile as Magician. Body Manipulator takes a third place in that contest. Are any of them broken? No.

Despite Lagi being a good example, I will ask as my conclusion:

Where is the Magician side to this question?

You didn't touch on that point at all. The entire focus was on Lagi and how his traits may be questionable.

I will like to comment from the well know weakest class and spec - Ranger/Dexterity:

I will firstly look at the pros/con's in points with a small write up for every class. I will not be going into racials or into things not related to class features - such as magic weapon and tool limits.

Magician:
Pros:
-Has the 2nd joint highest Primary energy split
-2nd Longest Range (We don't see any ranged beasts so we can't tell if BT's are equal)
-Homing Attacks
-Personal Shield (that prevents surprise attacks)
-Can perform healing
-Can fly

Cons:
-Reliant only on Magoi
-Can only carry one wand/stave
-must cast through a wand/stave
-Weak strength without secondary class
-Have a high skill cap

Magicians - While they provide a huge amount of utility, feature the 2nd highest range and cover a huge number of domains as well as reach beyond human limits. Combination Magic also extends the options they have massively.
By allowing borg's to regen it gave them a massive boost - However, the one primary weakness they have always maintained is that if they loose their staff they can't perform any actions. They cannot make up for this through traits or further items.



Beast Tamers:
Pros:
-Has the 2nd joint highest Primary Energy Split
-Have a huge option for Beast's each has their cons and advantages.
(Single - These individual creatures while vulnerable as players are can be made into damage sponges, attackers as well as attacking another threat on the battlefield - think of them as another player but one that can act perfectly with its master or act as a mount)
(Swarms - Unused but actually likely the most powerful PvP monstrosity, a swarm can not be killed as easily by Direct Means. To bring it down you need AoE attacks. They can also technically attack you from all sides at once and people should have nearly no means of avoiding all attacks from them (I'd argue these are perfect borg killers combine with stealth traits to ruin someones day.))
(Parasite/Symbiote - The only beast type capable of sharing its trait's DIRECTLY with its master, in exchange they are due scaling disadvantages based on their tier (examples we have seen of these are one that required you to treat yourself with haung costing medicine to prevent your character being killed etc) They also can't attack only providing supplementary and defensive effects)
-Beast Tamers can bring multiple pets into a thread, as long as they fit the tier's within their rank + trait enhancement limit
-Beast's have minimal restrictions on what they can do
-Beast's can fly
-Beast's can perform healing
-Beast's can act as a shield
-Beast's act on logic rules regarding health and aren't destroyed by clashing but rather wounded by blow locations
-Beast's have an initial cost and can be ranked up by thread work/Word count

Cons:
-Beast Tamers have a high skill cap
-The strongest (Legend Tier beasts, highest sentience can only have one at a time) - Not 100% about this
-Require a beast to be a minimum of B tier to use as a Mount - this has since been removed
-Must use stamina only for Techniques
-Each of the Beast options has its distinct strengths and weaknesses
-Act as their base racial strength (may not by base have access to strength enhancements)

Beast Tamers - Beast Tamers provide parity if not more options in terms of utility than Magicians - while they don't necessarily bar from a parasite get an automatic no surprise attacks as a magician does. They get access to ever form of attack, can ride a mount thusly not needing movement traits for themselves and can bring as many beasts as they want into a thread as long as the total number is equal to their rank.
This means a Beast Tamer could bring say an A tier legend beast and four two B tier Wolves - bar RP damage the beast tamer could happily sacrifice all bar one wolf in battle but still have access to all of their tech's for wolves.


Warrior:
Pros:
-Has access to a huge array of weapons from history, reach weapons, close range etc
-Only class with access to TRUE shields (see item strength)
-Has the parry feature - This is used correctly could technically turn away contact required AoE's/Untested but could technically be used in a way to hit other nearby hostiles
-Magoi Manipulation - Allows access to your Magoi Pool, while allowing strengthening on the tier of your ability and resistances to magical effects and the ability can not be Melee blocked (Brilliant against any Non-Warrior)
-Has the highest primary energy split

Cons:
-Is primary melee/very short range only
-Is vulnerbale to any flying enemies
-Requires being in the most dangerous area of combat yourself (Front line)
-No form of medium/long ranged attacks
-Has limited access to status ailments
-No personal healing

Warrior - While on the surface Warrior's could appear rather vulnerable to ranged attacks. They have strength through the options of magoi manipulation, parry (which negates the magoi manipulation features against themselves) and shield use. Shields act as their version of a borg or shielding creature in a sense.
Shields are stronger than weapons in terms of durability and can be used to absorb normal blows as well as techniques as sacrificial lambs. They can also be used for offensive techniques.
They lose in terms of not have access to a large array of status effects or ranged attacks and no personal healing which both BT's and Magician's can get access to.


Assassin:
Pros:
-Has a huge array of status ailment options
-Access to Stealth/Concealment Features
-Can use ranged and melee attacks, hybridisation between both styles
-Has the largest weapon cap of all classes
-Has a huge array of weapon options
-Can put movement into their attacks to make them attacks and dodges

Cons:
-Has the 2nd worst primary energy split
-No personal healing
-Ranged attacks + techs are only from thrown weapons at Medium range max (10m)
-Ranged attacks are ammunition limited
-Has no homing attacks

Assassin - Assassin's are the king of surprise play. with the many weapon options being one handed allowing the ability to use both hands to make attacks rather efficiently as well as having access to equivalent stealth and status features of a ranger.
With its large weapon cap, it can easily bring a single ranged weapon to take its ammo pool alongside a number of melee weapons that can be expended for their durability.
Due to this closer range, it also makes it harder to just say "steps to the side etc"


Ranger:
Pros:
-Has access to a huge array of status ailments
-Has access to stealth/concealment
-Has the longest range of any class for both basic ranged attacks (No solid limt) and Techniques (reaching around 60m at most)

Cons:
-Has little need for more than one ranged weapon (though if it breaks your screwed)
-Has fewest weapon options of any weapon type class
-Has the worst primary energy split
-Has no melee capability at all other than base melee
-Basic attacks are strictly ammunition limited
-Has no homing attacks

Ranger - With equal access to status ailments and stealth as the assassin, the ranger beats it out with access to the longest range. Its major disadvantage comes with needing two hands with almost ever long ranged option and requiring to load their weapons.
Hunting Knives exist but have so few details on them that they are sort of non-existent other than as a RP device.
With having the longest range and no homing attacks, it makes it harder to avoid meta against your ranged attacks (even though a high ranked ranger would be reasonably expected to track and predict its target)



Body Manipulation:
Pros:
-Can remove status ailments themselves (bleeds etc)
-Can move their body in attacks to make them attacks and dodges
-Don't have to fear losing a limb
-Can create Damage Resistance Techniques
-Can gain access to flight or other creature abilities (underwater breathing ?)
-The body is the weapon and can be used to attack from multiple directions

Neutral:
-Has the middle ground of Primary Energy Split

Cons:
-Has no regeneration/healing
-Has no parry or true ranged features as an assassin or warrior
-Has no reinforcing of lower tier tech's (magoi manip)
-Has no access to weapons or shields
-Cannot sacrifice base equipment to prevent personal damage

Body Manipulators - While many say body manipulators are weak, they have one of the strongest features. Being able to put their own limb back on - should a warrior, assassin or ranger lose a limb they as a character are almost certain put to an end.
The main disadvantage comes to their heavy reliance in melee to make use of techniques as they lack any weapons or shields by base to absorb tech's or attacks into.
However, they bring the highest resilience and status ailment removal of the melee classes.

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This is my analysis on the classes, any questions give me a shout

I'll conclude this thread by stating that I'll look over the analysis. If there is any rules, guidelines, or clarifications that need to be added to any of the classes, I will do it. But other than that, this discussion is finished on the premise we've come to an understanding in the Discord.