Dex Magic Tool Restrictions

So as ive been working on dex magic tools with garret there should be restrictions:

A dex magic tool can only:
-Use magic of its own Dungeon Type
-Only has 2 ability slots but may hold a clone ability on a separate cooldown.
-Abilities of Item rank or below

Those should be at least the 3 conditions.

Since I'm a dex user, I thought I'd comment. The first one is in place at the moment and the third I can understand, but the second one I'm not sure on. As it is now, the magic tools run off of your Dex Ability Slots, they aren't free. I could understand a restriction if they were free ability slots that you received per magic weapon, but since they aren't, I don't agree with that second restriction. Which kind of brings me back to the ability rank limitations, since they are considered a bow and you are using your ability slots, should that mean a C-tier ancient weapon bow should only do C-tier abilities? I get that you are getting magic abilities out of it, but Dexterity already had MASSIVE nerfs taken to it with the addition of the stealth class. I worry that anymore nerfs and it won't be a viable class anymore.

That's just my two cents.

Another one

-Not usable while in Household Uber Form or Djinn Equip Mode

household "uber" form, as you put it, cannot wield any weapon... and Djinn equips can only use the djinn equip weapon and techs related to it.

-Use magic of its own Dungeon Type

Like Diego pointed out, this is already a limitation on all magic tools/weapons.

-Only has 2 ability slots but may hold a clone ability on a separate cooldown.

What is a "clone ability"? I don't get what that means.

But as for the amount of abilities they get, I think they should get to be the same as any dungeon magic tool. A latent ability that is part of the item that activates simply by giving it magoi and then two other spells that must be trained.

-Abilities of Item rank or below

I don't think this kind of limitation is fair unless all magic tools have it. To my knowledge, they currently do not. Perhaps this limitation would be more fitting if it were applied to the latent ability mentioned above only?

EDIT: I was informed that dex users just use normal ability slots for their magic. I'd say we scratch that and let the magic tool abilities not count towards their total. This way a dex user doesn't save 90% of their ability slots to make them all into spells.

Yea your edit basicly hits the nail on the head its to prevent that i would think 2 spell slots would be fair per tool as a Omega would then get 6 at most. With what they can do it would be fair.

EDIT:
A clone ability would be that two different tools could hold the same ability. This means you basicly don't get people renaming tech's that are they same.

I still would like to know what kinds of "spells" you guys are trying to make. I was always under the impression that a Dexterity Magic Weapon per canon was a more modern ranged weapon. For example, a gun, a repeater rifle, canon, grenade launcher. When I think of abilities, it is in the form of projectiles rather than supplementary effects. What I mean by this, is that the Marax Dungeon has perfect illusions. A normal int spell would be able to use that magic type to make the user invisible, but I don't believe that a Dexterity Magic Weapon should. Ideas of abilities:

- Life Bow: Healing arrow, Animal-esque projectile (Bunny, chicken, fanamini, etc)
- Storm Gun: Shoots mini-lightning bolts
- Gem Cannon: Shoot large shards of gems

That is how I always thought Dex Magic Weapons were supposed to interact. I believe a previous wording on them even heavily implied it. Now if you're suggesting they do things like this:

- Gem gun:  a spell that grants the user a spiked brass knuckle type weapon on their knuckles for 2 posts

That right there, that is not in the spirit of what I think they should be able to do.

I guess a shortened way of saying it is, I always thought the Dex magic weapons were similar to regular weapons in that they performed as that weapon should.

EDIT: So my point is, if the purpose of a Dex magic weapon is to change the type of projectile or effect of the projectile and the variety of weapon type, then why should they be restricted to two or three abilities? I see no problem with having to use ability slots. Dex abilities are supposed to be long range (no close or melee abilities).

The older wording you mention makes me understand where you are coming from. But I believe that letting Dex make magic "tools" instead just magic "weapons" grants the spec a greater range of versatility. If a player wants to make one of those tools into a weapon, I don't see any reason why we should stop them. But I also see no reason to stop them from making a pendant that lets them become invisible or a pair of boots that make a crystal platform for them to stand on that floats through the air.

I guess my stance on the matter is summed up into that I disagree the magic tools should only be weapons. That's my opinion because I feel like it gives Dex users more options. It lets everyone build their dex characters the way they want to build them.

Interesting idea... Then what about this proposal: If a dex user chooses a weapon instead of a tool, can they use their ability slots? If it's a tool, then they would have a limited number because of the versatility?

There needs to be balanced by the fact not all weapons make sense for what abilities you'd want to be used by the tool.

Different shapes allow for different things, for example i still think there needs to be a limited number of ability slots i suggest 2 as that gives 6 abilities to an omega dex.

For example personally i have a bias because i don't want my character carrying guns around i always wanted him to be like a hunter so things need to be subtle if i was ever going to use magic tools.

2 ability slots also means you have to use things within a limit of choice, but means what you pick and use is more meaningful.

To be meaningful to a character dictating shape or form of a tool i think could ruin peoples idea of there character because it feels that they can't decide what there character looks like in terms of equipment baring in mind are character constantly carries there inventory on them.

Id rather not look like a walking tank.

So does that mean you like the proposal of having a separation from Dex Magical Weapons and Dex Magical Tools? That means a dex user could choose at omega tier between having any combination of magic weapons or tools from the amount they are allowed.

I.e. 2 tools 1 weapons, 3 tools 0 weapons, 0 tools 3 weapons.

Then the distinction between magic weapons and magical tools is as follows:

Magic Weapons: A weapon that fires magical ammunition with a certain effect based off any dungeon's magic type.

Magic Tools: A custom-made magical tool with X slots in which to create spells based off any dungeon's magic type.

Azix Niraj wrote:Interesting idea... Then what about this proposal: If a dex user chooses a weapon instead of a tool, can they use their ability slots? If it's a tool, then they would have a limited number because of the versatility?

My main concern is a Dex user re-training all of their abilities to be magical in nature. To me, they would no longer be a dex user if they did this. They would be pseudo magicians.

So long as there is some kind of reasonable limit to the number of magical abilities these weapons can produce, I don't have much cause for complaint.

Even at Omega-tier you are still earning non-magical dex weapons. To me, that means that the intent there is that Dex users still make use of their non-magical weapons, ammunition, and abilities even at max rank. Just please, keep a limit on the number of abilities there can be tied to these magic weapons.

Should it be an optional choice by a dex player what combo they would like to do ? as different ones would suit different characters.


Answer to yak:
Yea thats what i thought so wanted there to be two ability slots per magic tool/weapon and then you could have your omega, because the omega needs to be done by a magic tool or infused by the tool.

I agree with filling up all the ability slots with magic, so this was my idea:

Magical Tools: 2-3 ability slots that don't count towards your total. Highly Versatile as you get custom spells. Can be a pendant, earring, etc.

Magic Weapons: ~5 abilities for weapons because they are less versatile. A gun, canon, repeater crossbow, bow, etc.

Yea i think that would work Azix depending on what the mod's think.

say if you have 3 tools you have 7, if you have 2 you have 4 and if you have 1 you have 2 abilities. for tools

Weapons look fine.

Also maybe to add more balance to magic dex weapons they should have an increased base damage ? rather than -1 or maybe increased projectile speed ?

I'm not sure what you mean. What -1? And you think a dex magic weapon's abilities should do a tier higher in damage? (I.e. an a-tier does omega tier damage?)

Azix Niraj wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. What -1? And you think a dex magic weapon's abilities should do a tier higher in damage? (I.e. an a-tier does omega tier damage?)

No atm a dex weapon deals the tier damage lower than it a magic weapon could say deal the same damage as the tier (but not including omega)

Basic ammunition deals the same tier as the bow. Magic weapons cant use ammunition. I think you are going off an older version of the dex rules. Basic ammunition was changed

Azix Niraj wrote:Basic ammunition deals the same tier as the bow. Magic weapons cant use ammunition. I think you are going off an older version of the dex rules. Basic ammunition was changed

O god ok thats my mistake i was still using it at -1 then :P

Based on the feedback provided herewithin, Ariella and myself have determined the following to be what we will move forward with:


Magic Weapons: A weapon that fires magical ammunition with a certain effect based off of the selected dungeon's magic type. These weapons can be a variety of different things, including (but not limited to) things such as cannons, pistols, rifles, bows, slings etc. A maximum of 5 of your character’s Dexterity Specialization slots may be used to register abilities for these Magic Weapons, which must follow the dexterity guidelines. While these items function as weapons, they are unable to fire basic ammunition and do not come with basic ammunition.

Magic Tools: A custom-made magical tool with 2 slots in which to create spells based off of the selected dungeon's magic type. These abilities go by the Intelligence guidelines. These can be any sort of accessory including (but not limited to) things such as pendants, earrings, gem-encrusted objects, etc. These items do not function as weapons, but retain the item hps of weapons.


Dungeons conquered & their themes:

Marax | Perfect Illusions (Light + Sound)
Gusion | Storm (Wind + Lightning)
Vassago | Holy (Light + Healing)
Bifrons | Crystal (Heat + Strength)
Caim | Razor (Strength + Wind)
Cimeies | Plague (Life + Poison)
Gremory | Strength