Gravity Lift Balances

Hey, I know I already asked a similar question to this on Xavier dealing with Strength and Speed buffs, but this question will be dealing entirely with Gravity Lift vs Speed Buff for Stat Buffs through Magoi Manipulation, Body Manipulation, Djinn and Household Vessels.

My question is this: Why does Gravity Lift (Self) only give a 20 m/s speed boost, while the Speed Buff gives a 30 m/s speed buff when both are at Omega-Tier?

I can understand why the Group Gravity Lift is only 20 m/s; after all, Speed Buffs are for one person only, so it makes sense that it shouldn't be as fast. But personally it doesn't make sense that the Gravity Lift for oneself only gives a 20 m/s speed buff.

Of course, there are things to explain this, such as the fact that any Magician can use these gravity lifts. But I don't find that fair for someone who purposely picks Strength Magic. They get nerfed simply because everyone else can freely access a spell in their type of magic. I see two remedies to this.

1. Don't allow anyone except for those with Strength Magic to use Gravity Lift (Self), or even Group Gravity Lift if you want to go that far. However, at least Gravity Lift (Self) would need to be balanced to 30 m/s at Omega-Tier, like the Speed Buff at that tier.

2. Let any magician use either, but give Strength Magians the added bonus of receiving a full 30 m/s speed boost, at least in Gravity Lift (Self).

Unless there is a reason that flight, in RP, is actually stronger than general/swimming/burrowing, but  I don't think that Gravity Lift (Self) should be reduced so much. And even so, it should be moved up to at least 25 m/s to differentiate from Group Gravity Lift, but I don't believe that there's any difference. In fact, Speed Buff users can dodge faster abilities, while those with Gravitity Lift (Self) pay the same Magoi for a lower Speed Boost. This doesn't seem fair.

Finally, the guidelines for Gravity Lift seem kind of old themselves; it looks to me like they were taken as stated from the original admin, and that all that was changed was that Group Gravity Lift was split into its own ability, which I believe to be fair; they shouldn't be the same ability. However, this means that Gravity Lift (Self) is its own ability, and it shouldn't be so weak unless there is a very good reason against it. I haven't, personally, seen Gravity Lift (Self), or for that matter Group Gravity Lift, been used in my time here, and I believe that's because it's so underpowered.

Please let me know if there's anything I'm not putting into consideration, and thank you very much for your time!

if they increase gravity lift speed they should increase all flight skill speed.

you are forgetting the increased maneuverability of flight versus running. In the air you can move in any direction whereas running, you are stuck with left/right/forward/backward. There is no up or down to that.

Str magicians are not "nerfed" because other magicians can use it, magicians as a whole are "nerfed" because they already have NUMEROUS perks over other specs. It is a means of balancing things out a little bit.

I'm fine with sharing. And I have used Gravity Lift in a fair number of battles in which is has been very useful, even with the "nerf" in speed.

However, if you want to fly as fast as you can run using a buff, then create a sphere of magoi in which you are able to freely maneuver yourself at whatever the maximum speed is. However, you can't leave the sphere and therefore can't use the flight to dodge all that well if the attack is big enough. You'd also have to have Strength Magic to pull it off. Even then, I'm not sure what staff would say to a spell such as that~

Anyway, I personally don't mind all those rules

Hohotaro wrote:if they increase gravity lift speed they should increase all flight skill speed.

Gravity Lift is a speed buff combined with flight, at least how I see it. I'm not sure of what flight skill speeds you're talking about, seeing as how the only other Specialization that might have a flying speed (normally) would be a bird in the Dominance Spec, and in that case the bird isn't getting a speed buff like Gravity Lift, because it uses no magoi to be up in the air, if that makes any sense. If you're talking about something like, say, Helicopter Hair for Manipulation, then yes, I'd agree with that, since they'd be using the same amount of magoi. But I guess the main thing to figure out is how much of a benefit in a combat scenario does flying give vs running, and that'll decide the outcome.

Ariella Negri wrote:you are forgetting the increased maneuverability of flight versus running. In the air you can move in any direction whereas running, you are stuck with left/right/forward/backward. There is no up or down to that.

Ace wrote:Unless there is a reason that flight, in RP, is actually stronger than general/swimming/burrowing, but I don't think that Gravity Lift (Self) should be reduced so much. And even so, it should be moved up to at least 25 m/s to differentiate from Group Gravity Lift, but I don't believe that there's any difference. In fact, Speed Buff users can dodge faster abilities, while those with Gravitity Lift (Self) pay the same Magoi for a lower Speed Boost. This doesn't seem fair.

So yes, I touched on the idea that flight might actually be more advantageous in RP (by which I meant combat) scenarios, and as you say they do have the aspect of maneuverability. I just wanted, so to speak, qualify (or, if possible, quantify) how much this maneuverability actually affects dodging spells, for example, versus a regular Speed Buff user, who is able to dodge much faster. My question is this: how much does the maneuverability a magician have while using Gravity Lift (Self) make up for the lower speed?

Ariella Negri wrote:Str magicians are not "nerfed" because other magicians can use it, magicians as a whole are "nerfed" because they already have NUMEROUS perks over other specs. It is a means of balancing things out a little bit.

Strength Magicians aren't necessarily "nerfed" because others can use it, but at the same time the rest of the magicians get the free perk of being able to use this Gravity Magic spell without needing to buy a Page of the Lost Grimoire. Furthermore, I understand that magicians are already a strong class as it is, so it makes sense that the Gravity Lift spell wouldn't be as strong as a Speed Buff spell since all magicians can use it. But it's not fair to Strength Magicians who are getting the brunt end of this deal by having access to the "nerfed" ability that all magicians have access too, even though this ability is part of their magic. This is why I proposed two remedies that would relieve the unfair side effects that come with being part of a class that has access to a lot of different options. Gravity Magicians, however, chose to be Gravity Magicians (OOC) and have limited themselves by that choice (can only obtain two more magic types, which means they can't access all the supplementary abilities a non-Gravity Magic user could). I think it's only fair that Gravity Magicians get this for limiting themselves, whereas a Heat Magician can just pick up Gravity Lift and suffer only the loss of one ability slot, and in the meanwhile is able to use the burn supplementary effect while Gravity Magicians can't.

Zadi wrote:I'm fine with sharing. And I have used Gravity Lift in a fair number of battles in which is has been very useful, even with the "nerf" in speed.

However, if you want to fly as fast as you can run using a buff, then create a sphere of magoi in which you are able to freely maneuver yourself at whatever the maximum speed is. However, you can't leave the sphere and therefore can't use the flight to dodge all that well if the attack is big enough. You'd also have to have Strength Magic to pull it off. Even then, I'm not sure what staff would say to a spell such as that~

Anyway, I personally don't mind all those rules

What you said I'd be completely fine with, since it'd make it that Strength Magicians would be able to have the buff while others can't, which is basically just my second remedy rethought. As long as the cost didn't increase, then I think I'd be on board with something like that, maybe even a skin-tight outline so that it will only ever affect the user.

How unbalanced would it be that only 2 specific types of character can catch you in the air? All you need to do is fly stay away and shoot things...

And also you can use gravity magic for other things right? Flying is just a mage ability, it just so happens that it uses gravity element.

They should make it type-less to remove confusion and special treatment, and just use pure magoi like the borg, all mages can fly anyway even in canon lol

Hohotaro wrote:How unbalanced would it be that only 2 specific types of character can catch you in the air? All you need to do is fly stay away and shoot things...

Not necessarily true, in my opinion. Unless the extra maneuverability actually has a quantitative component to it, then you can still be hit by abilities that are faster than you depending on how far away you are. It's a bit of math, but you're definitely not invincible in flight, and you're slower than someone using a speed buff.

Hohotaro wrote:And also you can use gravity magic for other things right? Flying is just a mage ability, it just so happens that it uses gravity element.

Of course, but those are basic supplementary effects like bleed, immobilization, and probably disorientation that almost every other type of Magic has access to, not to mention probably all the other Specializations. Strength/Gravity Magicians have nothing that is innately theirs, like Lightning Magicians have paralysis supplementary, Fire Magicians have burning, Ice (Water) Magicians have freezing, Life Magicians have healing, Light Magicians have invisibility, etc. That's why I think, as sub-set of Strength Magic, a Gravity Magician should be able to have the boost I mentioned in remedy 2.

Hototaro wrote:They should make it type-less to remove confusion and special treatment, and just use pure magoi like the borg, all mages can fly anyway even in canon lol

Yeah, but then Gravity Magic's flying aspect is made worthless. That flying aspect should do something, considering it would be stronger than a type-less spell, seeing as how a pure magoi attack does almost no damage in canon, so it only makes sense that a typed (Gravity Magic) spell would be more powerful than a type-less pure magoi spell, just as how a Fire Magic spell does more damage than a type-less pure magoi spell.

I'm on my phone at work so I can't go into detail, but the reason flight is slower is for balance. Not only is flight versatile, magicians in general are versatile making them a strong opponent. Strength and manipulation in some cases need magoi manip to get in close.

Also it should be noted that the flight spell can't be clashed with, making it stronger

Honestly, until you have truly had a chance to experience most of the systems and how they balance in actual combat, especially against other players, you probably won't understand just how many advantages magicians have over other classes. Magicians are one of the most versatile specializations on the forum, which is a huge advantage in itself. Giving them the movement buff equal to that of Strength of Manipulation would make them untouchable by anyone except Dominance users with a flying beast or those with flying carpets, as they could simply outrun everyone else's attacks.

If you see this as a nerf targeting strength magicians, then you truly don't understand the versatility of the magic type.

Azix Niraj wrote:I'm on my phone at work so I can't go into detail, but the reason flight is slower is for balance. Not only is flight versatile, magicians in general are versatile making them a strong opponent. Strength and manipulation in some cases need magoi manip to get in close.

Also it should be noted that the flight spell can't be clashed with, making it stronger

Trust me, I completely understand that magicians are very strong as it is; I'm not asking for them to, as a whole, be stronger. That's why remedy 1 was to remove the possibility for them to even take Gravity Lift at all; it's a bonus they shouldn't have access to, in my opinion, unless they have taken gravity (strength) magic. That, or remedy 2 to boost Strength Magicians only, not all of them as a whole.

And yeah, while that's certainly true, the Speed Buff can't be clashed with either I think, so it's not stronger than its equivalent.

Ariella Negri wrote:Honestly, until you have truly had a chance to experience most of the systems and how they balance in actual combat, especially against other players, you probably won't understand just how many advantages magicians have over other classes. Magicians are one of the most versatile specializations on the forum, which is a huge advantage in itself. Giving them the movement buff equal to that of Strength of Manipulation would make them untouchable by anyone except Dominance users with a flying beast or those with flying carpets, as they could simply outrun everyone else's attacks.

If you see this as a nerf targeting strength magicians, then you truly don't understand the versatility of the magic type.

Basically what I said to Azix: maybe magicians as a whole shouldn't have access to Gravity Lift, since they're already very strong anyways. I guess I'll make my question even clearer: Are the dodging capabilities provided by the added maneuverability of flight the same as the equivalent Speed Buff's raw speed?

I understand that Strength Magic, and by extension its sub-type Gravity Magic, are very versatile, but they also lack, as I said to Hohotaro, their own supplementary bonus that is unique to them, which practically all the other magic types have.

Azix and Ari already talk about most important points I'd mention. Just want to state for Hoho and anyone else who might not know, the canon flight spell all magician's use is gravity magic. This is why it is listed as such on the forum. So making it a typeless magic spell wouldn't make sense.

That's why remedy 1 was to remove the possibility for them to even take Gravity Lift at all; it's a bonus they shouldn't have access to, in my opinion, unless they have taken gravity (strength) magic.

This is impossible as it would render all other magicians crippled. It operates on the idea that magicians without a focus in strength should be incapable of flight. But it doesn't take into consideration that almost every spell is making minor use of gravity magic. It's how water magician's can make water float and how life magician creations can fly. This is canon. gravity magic IS a sub-set of strength magic, but it is generally a highly basic and fundamental aspect of magic that all magician's have access to.

As a strength magician, you have advantages in the use of strength/gravity magic that other magicians do not have. For example, you are skilled enough to individually control thousands of grains of sand to make a giant golem like Aladdin does with his Ugo spell. You can also use strength magic to wreck non magicians as it is more or less invisible(the supplementary perk you seem to be forgetting).

Basically what I said to Azix: maybe magicians as a whole shouldn't have access to Gravity Lift, since they're already very strong anyways. I guess I'll make my question even clearer: Are the dodging capabilities provided by the added maneuverability of flight the same as the equivalent Speed Buff's raw speed?

Against most other specs, flight is several magnitudes better than a speed buff from other specs. All the speed in the world doesn't help when the target is out of reach. It renders these "stronger" speed buffs null and useless.

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I do have another problem with the forum flight spells that I'd like to bring up though since we're on the topic.

Currently group gravity lift and the single gravity lift spells are identical to each other with the exception of the group ones affecting more targets.

So why ever train the singular version when the group version costs the same and is generally more powerful/useful?

My suggested fix is to bump the rank of each group lift spell up by one. So in order to match a single lift spell with a group lift spell, the group spell would need to be one tier higher. The logic being that because you are focusing the spell on multiple targets, the overall speed/duration/cost/etc are all penalized.

Yakuroro wrote:Azix and Ari already talk about most important points I'd mention. Just want to state for Hoho and anyone else who might not know, the canon flight spell all magician's use is gravity magic. This is why it is listed as such on the forum. So making it a typeless magic spell wouldn't make sense.

That's why remedy 1 was to remove the possibility for them to even take Gravity Lift at all; it's a bonus they shouldn't have access to, in my opinion, unless they have taken gravity (strength) magic.

This is impossible as it would render all other magicians crippled. It operates on the idea that magicians without a focus in strength should be incapable of flight. But it doesn't take into consideration that almost every spell is making minor use of gravity magic. It's how water magician's can make water float and how life magician creations can fly. This is canon. gravity magic IS a sub-set of strength magic, but it is generally a highly basic and fundamental aspect of magic that all magician's have access to.

Well, I was only speaking about the Gravity Lift spell, as for remedy 1, not the effect of gravity magic itself that you went into. But in any case, there's also remedy 2.

Yakuroro wrote:As a strength magician, you have advantages in the use of strength/gravity magic that other magicians do not have. For example, you are skilled enough to individually control thousands of grains of sand to make a giant golem like Aladdin does with his Ugo spell. You can also use strength magic to wreck non magicians as it is more or less invisible(the supplementary perk you seem to be forgetting).

Yes, we could control all the sand we want to, but it still does the same damage as any other ability. Sure, it looks cool, but otherwise that's irrelevant.

Furthermore, that perk is kind of bogus, in my opinion, because unless it actually has a verifiable, stated use, then I don't see how it's powerful. People can still clash with the ability, even if they can't see it, correct? So sure, they can't see it, but they can and most likely will defend against it anyways in a battle, no matter if they logically shouldn't be able to. So yeah, I don't see this as a defined supplementary perk.

Basically what I said to Azix: maybe magicians as a whole shouldn't have access to Gravity Lift, since they're already very strong anyways. I guess I'll make my question even clearer: Are the dodging capabilities provided by the added maneuverability of flight the same as the equivalent Speed Buff's raw speed?

Yakuroro wrote:Against most other specs, flight is several magnitudes better than a speed buff from other specs. All the speed in the world doesn't help when the target is out of reach. It renders these "stronger" speed buffs null and useless.

But with higher movement speed, wouldn't a Speed Buff user be able to dodge an ability at max range that a Gravity Lift user wouldn't be able to simply because they can move faster?

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Hohotaro wrote:I do have another problem with the forum flight spells that I'd like to bring up though since we're on the topic.

Currently group gravity lift and the single gravity lift spells are identical to each other with the exception of the group ones affecting more targets.

So why ever train the singular version when the group version costs the same and is generally more powerful/useful?

My suggested fix is to bump the rank of each group lift spell up by one. So in order to match a single lift spell with a group lift spell, the group spell would need to be one tier higher. The logic being that because you are focusing the spell on multiple targets, the overall speed/duration/cost/etc are all penalized.

This is basically just flipping my argument on its head. I agree that Group Gravity Lift shouldn't be the same as Gravity Lift (Self), but I think that should come in the effect of at least a buff to Gravity Lift (Self), not a nerf to Group Gravity Lift in my opinion.

Well, I was only speaking about the Gravity Lift spell, as for remedy 1, not the effect of gravity magic itself that you went into. But in any case, there's also remedy 2.

So a water magician like myself can use gravity magic well enough to float a mass of water far heavier than myself. But can't use it to make myself float? What is the sense behind making the lift spell exclusive aside from giving strength magic users something exclusive?

Yes, we could control all the sand we want to, but it still does the same damage as any other ability. Sure, it looks cool, but otherwise that's irrelevant.

You're thinking inside the box. It's good for more than just flavor text. I'm not going to spell out(no pun intended) how this kind of magic could be highly advantageous for you. But I would urge you to think on it a bit and about how it would allow you to perform attacks that other magic types aren't really capable of doing. Thing about attack angles and points of origin, that's all you're getting from me as far as hints go though.

Furthermore, that perk is kind of bogus, in my opinion, because unless it actually has a verifiable, stated use, then I don't see how it's powerful. People can still clash with the ability, even if they can't see it, correct? So sure, they can't see it, but they can and most likely will defend against it anyways in a battle, no matter if they logically shouldn't be able to. So yeah, I don't see this as a defined supplementary perk.

The verified and stated use is that the only way someone can "see" the spell if they aren't a magician is as a warping in the air. In the middle of a battle it is very easy to create conditions where this warping is hard or impossible to notice. If you create a situation where someone logically shouldn't be able to see an attack coming or otherwise detect it and they still clash/block the attack, that is godmoding. If that happens, you call the person out on it and ask for an edit. If they refuse, you request staff to step in and make a decision.

But with higher movement speed, wouldn't a Speed Buff user be able to dodge an ability at max range that a Gravity Lift user wouldn't be able to simply because they can move faster?

I don't see why a magician would have to attack from max range, but in that scenario, yes. The speed buff user would be in a good position to dodge most, if not all, the magician's attacks. However the magician doesn't need to be at max range to be outside of the melee users range. There is also the terrain to factor in. Sometimes it would be impossible for the speed buff user to dodge simply based on the nature of his/her surroundings. The reverse is true though as some settings would prevent a magician from flying out of range of physical attacks. But a magician has FAR more options on how to attack a grounded opponent if they do get air borne than their target has for attacking them. Dex and Dom users excluded of course(They don't have speed buffs so comparing them is irrelevant to this discussion.)

As a Str or Man user, your options to attack a flying opponent are to use an ability that lets you jump high, or find terrain to quickly ascend to the magician's height level. That's really it unless you possess a magic tool and even those have limited abilities/cool downs. On the other hand, a magician could potentially have every spell in their arsenal as viable options for pressuring the melee fighter. Some of the supplementary spells might even have the benefit of creating conditions where the melee fighter would be unable to dodge a large spell later. Such as turning the ground to ice with a spell that has the supplementary effect of causing those who run across it to slip and fall.

After talking to people, I think I'm going to just be content with what I have. I wasn't considering the effect flight has on some of the other Specializations, and that's a huge part of balancing it. Thanks so much for the help ^^