Creature Dungeon Mounts

I would like to suggest allowing creature dungeon mounts to be able to be ridden into battle and therefore be given the same item destruction rules as other items of similar tier.

My only argument in favor of this suggestion is how cheap flying carpets are in comparison;

Flying Carpet (75,000 Huang) - Indestructible, Flight, Combat, 25 m/s speed, 25% WC travel reduction, Can be stolen (never seen it done so far)

Dungeon Mount (50,000 Huang) - 15 m/s speed, Destructible (if implemented), Ground or Flight (depends on mount), 25% WC travel reduction, Can be stolen (only when the owner dies?)

The biggest differences seem to be price, flight (certain situations), destructibility, and most of all SPEED. The difference in speed is key and what I believe to be the main reason that these mounts differ in price to begin with; carpet being obviously more expensive. There are more flying carpets in vaults than there are dungeon mounts because not only do you get the reduction in WC, you gain A-tier speed FOR COMBAT. Dungeon mounts use C-tier speed and they can't go into combat.

I don't see why carpets can go into battle, yet dungeon mounts cannot. If someone could either agree to my suggestion and/or help shed some light on some confusion that I have, that would be nice~

Flying Carpets are magic tools and were never originally intended to be seen as mounts or even considered to be in the same category. Granted, they are very powerful magic tools, but magic tools nonetheless. You don't have to be a dom user to use magic tools in battle but using beasts in battle is another story.

At least, that's why things were the way they were. As for your suggestion there are a couple problems.

-Not all dungeon mount beasts have ranks.
-They are living creatures, not items.

To be honest, I'd rather see flying carpet speed nerfed, become more expensive, and require a magoi upkeep to operate instead of seeing Giant Golems moving at Finalis speeds across the battlefield. If dungeon mounts do get to be ridden into battle, their stats need rebalancing to take their size/shape/etc into consideration.

I don't see what's wrong with comparing two similar "items" as they are both items in the sense they can be bought and sold. I know that sounds harsh, but that's just how things are with carpets, mounts, and items in general. Anyway;

-All dungeon mounts are supposed to be C-tier in order to match their speed which technically makes a flying carpet A-tier. In that sense, a price increase for carpets makes sense as A-tier items generally cost 150,000 Huang.

-Living creatures with durability sounds rather similar to Dom beasts which go off of the "item destruction" system like every other item.

Bringing Dungeon Mounts into combat would be similar to Dom beast users bringing their beasts into combat, but Dungeon Mounts don't have abilities (aside from speed and travel WC reduction). Developed Dom beasts are far more complex than Dungeon Mounts aside from their origins. Comparing the two is one thing, but from my perspective they are too different to be similar. Bringing a Dungeon Mount into combat isn't like bringing in a Dom beast. Dungeon Mounts assist in mobility while Dom beasts assist in a much broader variety of ways such as defense, offense, mobility at higher tiers, and support, all of which could be done at the same time given the right combination of abilities and beasts.

It's not like you give Dungeon Mounts complex orders or tasks.

The re-balancing of stats for Dungeon Mounts is unnecessary. Magic constructs (which could range from any hefty being down to a small pest) can move at ability speeds (sometimes exceeding speeds of 15 m/s) so why not Dungeon Mounts? They come from super magical places (dungeon...obviously). Though, one could argue that only constructs are made from magic, but technically so are Dungeon Mounts. And besides, why give Dungeon Mounts movement speeds if you can't utilize them within combat? I guess you could use the movement speeds in jobs that require racing or chasing, but abilities can be much faster. I can also see the existence of Dungeon Mount speeds for RP purposes, but I also only see it as a waste of space if those same speeds can't be used to their full potential.

If none of my points are good enough for any reason and Dungeon Mounts are never getting their place in combat, then I guess I should start begging for a refund...which I'm never gonna get.

As for the carpet suggestion (if that was a real suggestion), then I'm all for it. They are quite overpowered. Not only do they fly faster than A-tier Gravity Lifts, but they don't cost a thing and last infinity longer. I don't know what speed would be best to keep things fair, but the magoi/stamina cost should match said speed, at least.

My only input for this is that if magic carpets require an upkeep in battle then Dom users should have an equal one when used as a mount in battle, for obvious balance reasons, since the flying carpet is the only way to keep up with atier beast

Dom beasts do not go off the item destruction chart.
https://magiworld.forumotion.com/t2446-dominance-beast-information

Mounts and cast spells are far from the same thing. A spell requires magoi and can only be kept up for a limited amount of time. A mount is a constant speed boost all specs require magoi to match or beat. A rebalancing of the dungeon mount's speed and perhaps even health to suit their shape and size seems like a very reasonable course of action to me.

If you pay attention to my message, I don't say that dungeon mounts should never have a place in battle. I explained why things were originally set up so they couldn't be used in battle.

Woops...well...items are 5x more durable than their damage output (aside from shields)...that's very different...sorry. I never did the math in my head and just equated the two statistics. I'm also sorry for not being able to interpret your post properly. Thought you disagreed with my suggestion.

Anyway, if flying carpets and mounted dom beasts have a usage upkeep in battle, then dungeon mounts should require combat upkeep, too.

And I guess Yaku's suggestion doesn't seem too complex. There aren't all that many dungeon mounts on the site, so re-balancing their speed and adding in proper health shouldn't be all too difficult. Larger mounts have more health but less speed. Smaller mounts have less health but more speed.

While I don't disagree with the simplicity, we have allowed people to change the size of their dungeon mounts before, so in cases like that, would they retain their previous stats or would the stats be reconfigured?

I wouldn't mind allowing the stats to be reconfigured upon purchase of the mount, though only once. Being able to constantly change the size of the mount would be rather unrealistic unless the mount had the capability of maturing in size. However, giving the capability of maturing a mount could possibility draw away from the Dom spec as Dom users generally change and mature their beasts over time. With dungeon mounts, you aren't buying a baby and maturing it. A dungeon mount is supposed to be fit and ready to begin with for it to be mountable.

Anyway, I got off track for a second there...so...as I said, I wouldn't mind allowing a single reconfiguration UPON PURCHASE of the dungeon mount.

I would like more input on this... The conversation kind of fizzled, but it is an important issue and I would like more input. I am not 100% against dungeon mounts being used in battle, but I think I would want a size cap if that were the case, along with a speed cap.

I noticed lots of conversation about dom beast and magic carpets requiring the expenditure of magoi for their excessive speeds. I would like more input on this as well. Would you rather see mounted speeds nerfed altogether or would you rather see a magoi upkeep to make them move that fast, for balance reasons?

Hmmm...well, this may be extreme but I propose adding a magoi/stamina cost for all mounted anythings equal to the speed of the mounted thing. This doesn't include abilities. Abilities are abilities, not mounts.

2 m/s speed = 2 magoi/stamina upkeep
10 m/s speed = 10 magoi/stamina upkeep
20 m/s speed = 20 magoi/stamina upkeep
25 m/s speed = 25 magoi/stamina upkeep
etc etc etc.

I'm sure you all understand what I'm trying to propose. Keeps things simple and fair. Abilities cost more upkeep, have limited usage time, have cooldowns, but don't cost Huang (unless you buy training, slots, or Grimore pages) whereas mounts cost a good chunk of Huang (including Dom beasts). With this proposal approved and implemented, mounts are still superior to abilities, including the super fast Omega-tier abilities which can only ever be sustained for 2 posts.

So yeah, I believe my proposal to be extreme...in terms of simplicity and understanding. I understand that Dom spec users will have concerns and I'm willing to discuss this, obviously.

I do not dislike your idea, Zadi... it is simple. I would really like to hear more input on this from everyone, since I know there are people that would LIKE this idea along with people that will hate it.

In making responses, I do ask that everyone remember to look at this from a balance perspective and not just how their own individual characters will be affected~

I'm a fan of Zadi's suggestions. They make sense, and they're simple. 1 Magoi/stamina per 1 m/s speed per post. Of course, if you vary your speed, it would just be a 1 time cost of the highest speed you go.

I also wouldn't mind the Dungeon Beasts being used in combat, with an addition to them having some sort of health.

My question for that would be this; would they follow regular Dom rules for bringing a dead companion back to life? Or would they have to use resurrection magic?

I think the suggestion is fine for flying carpets.

I do not think it should apply to mounts. Mounts should have a set max speed and require no cost to use.

If a Dom Beast can be ridden as a mount, then it should be one of its passives. This would keep the dom users from just mounting all their beasts. They will need to carefully choose which of their beasts they want to be mountable at the cost of passive slots that could otherwise be used to improve the combat/support potential of the beast.

One thing that could also be done to balance magic carpets is to have various ranks for the carpets. D would be the slowest and the cheapest and A could be the fastest and most expensive. With this there could also be potentially an item upgrade fee, the cost difference from the current rank to the next rank, allowing you to upgrade the carpet overtime. Basically it would be a huang balancing over a magoi balancing. Not sure how ideal this would be or if people will be up for it but it is an option to throughout.

As for the dungeon beast mounts and Dom mounts a magoi/stamina upkeep is one way to look at it, but another is post count/cooldown. A cheetah is super fast but can only maintain max speed for so long before it needs to rest. Looking at it that way mount animals should have a max post count at max speed after which they slow down. Give them a Sprint speed, Jogging speed, and a Walking speed. They can spend 2-4 posts at max speed before having walking speed cool down equal to the number of posts they spent running at max speed. They could alternatively spend 4-8 posts going at a jogging speed before having to have an equal amount of time stuck at walking speed before being able to pick up speed again.

If what Zadi suggested applied only to Magic Carpets but not for "mounts", as what Yaku further suggested, then I believe it would be unfair. A Magic Carpet is also a mount despite it being called─and known as─a "magic tool" and not being a living creature as the Dungeon Mounts, isn't it? After, the definition of "mount" is as follows: a horse, other animal, or sometimes a vehicle, as a bicycle, used, provided, or available for riding. So to treat two items basically used for the same one sort of object that in one way but not the other would kind of be a slap in the face. Now if I'm misunderstanding, then please clarify.

Now, canon-wise, when Aladdin used his Magic Carpet in an attempt to travel to Magnostadt, he couldn't because the amount of energy it took to use the carpet, caused him to become a bit fatigued and hungry, and he was a Magi too. So, it makes sense to use Zadi's proposal in terms of what happened in the manga/anime.

However, personally, I would find it annoying to constantly have to decrease my Magoi every single post for simply using my Magic Carpet for something like travel plot purposes and if I wanted to separate it into different mini posts. I can't think of any other reason since I'm still trying to grasp what is going on.

It's overall interesting how evolved this thread has become, but are we discussing the possibility to allow Dungeon Mounts usable in combat? Make Magic Carpets and Dungeon Mounts equal in some way, and if what, why and what exactly? Nerfing speeds on Dungeon Mounts only? Spend magoi to use a Dungeon Mount or Magic Carpet? Reconfiguring stats on Dungeon Mounts? Having Tiers associated to speed and how much magoi/stamina it takes to use it per post? There is a bit that has gone on here and I just want to clarify exactly what it is that we are trying to discuss since I am having trouble trying to sort out the information.

In the beginning, it was about whether or not dungeon mounts should be allowed in battle as, at this time, almost none, if any, can be. But then magic carpets came into the discussion and, inevitably, Dom beasts also came into play, as much of the discussion revolved around advantages of having mounts in combat.

As several people have brought concerns about the speed of magic carpets and Dom beasts into the discussion, it became very obvious that these were important issues to consider as well, especially when considering things like balance and fairness in obtaining and using these mounts.

Overall, I would like to see what mounts, if any, you feel should have more restrictions or more freedom. This would include magic carpets (which are, as Neo pointed out, not just a mount, but also a magic tool), dungeon mounts, and Dom beasts.

At this time, Magic carpets have no cost and can be flown indefinitely at 25 m/s. Dom beasts, with speed boosts at A-tier, also have this capability. Dungeon mounts give a reduction in TRAVEL THREAD posts but cannot be used in combat.

Please keep in mind, we do want to keep any changes balanced and, mostly, SIMPLE. What should or should not be allowed to be ridden in combat? What restrictions, if any, should be applied to things being ridden into combat?

I would personally like to see;

1) Anything ridden into combat (magic carpets, Dom beasts, dungeon creatures) to have a sustain cost equal to their top speed per post. If the top speed of a ridden thing is 25 m/s but it only flew at 15 m/s during a post, then only 15 magoi/stamina is paid for riding that post. Again, only during combat is the sustain cost activated, NOT during travel threads or social threads or training threads (cause you don't pay magoi/stamina in training to begin with).

2) Dom beasts have the option of circumventing the cost by adding in a passive skill specifically meant for mounting the beast into combat, within reason. You can mount a regular horse but you can't mount a regular pigeon.

3) Allow dungeon creatures to be ridden into combat with the above suggestions implemented.

4) I wanted to put something here for dungeon creatures health-wise, but I can't think of anything simple aside from "depending on their speed" which is strange so I'll just...yeah...let someone else think of something.

If what Zadi suggested applied only to Magic Carpets but not for "mounts", as what Yaku further suggested, then I believe it would be unfair. A Magic Carpet is also a mount despite it being called─and known as─a "magic tool" and not being a living creature as the Dungeon Mounts, isn't it? After, the definition of "mount" is as follows: a horse, other animal, or sometimes a vehicle, as a bicycle, used, provided, or available for riding. So to treat two items basically used for the same one sort of object that in one way but not the other would kind of be a slap in the face. Now if I'm misunderstanding, then please clarify.

I'm glad you asked this, I'd be happy to explain. Let me start by stating that this decision isn't just a whim. It is a focused choice made with my experience as a game design student driving its direction.

Flying Carpets and Beast Mounts both serve the same purpose, yes. They are essentially vehicles players can use to maneuver faster across the battlefield. However, the fact that they have the same general function is exactly why it is important to treat them differently. The point is to offer multiple choices to players with pros and cons surrounding them.

A Flying Carpet might still be the fastest thing around(I know maxed dom beasts can compete. But if my suggestion is taken then it would require two passives slots used up to get there as a mount. One to allow mounting, another to boost speed.) but it is costly to maintain.

A Mounted Beast doesn't cost any magoi to use. But generally in most cases, it is inferior in terms of raw speed.

These two have extreme opposite pros/cons. One is as magoi efficient as it gets, free! But also not fast enough to outrun the most dangerous attacks on the forum. The other is on par with the speed of those attacks, but costs a significant amount of magoi to reach that speed. This balance encourages players to consider what they want to invest their precious time and huang into. The more expensive carpet? The cheaper beast? Or double down and try to obtain both?

I hope this explanation is satisfactory in showing how it isn't unfair to treat the two differently. Please let me know if there are any other questions.

---

On the issue of not wanting to spend magoi while traveling or doing socials, I think a very fair and simple clause could be made to rules surrounding mounts stating that any costs associated with mounting only apply during combat

That's an interesting idea, but I feel that it doesn't address the balance issues. In fact, I believe that such a change would cause a further imbalance in Dominance's favor. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the complexities of your proposal, so I'll explain why it seems imbalanced to me.

For the context of this example, let us say we have two opponents of equal tier facing against each other. Opponent A is a Dom user with a legend beast that has two of their passives spent so they can both mount the beast and have it fly at 25 m/s. Opponent B is an intelligence user with a magic carpet.

In this situation, Opponent A uses their legend beast to stay out of harms way, while sending A-tier spells at their target. Opponent B has three main options; clash against the spells, dodge, or use their magic carpet for dodging. As an intelligence user, Opponent B would need a secondary spec that provides them the necessary perks to dodge an A-tier ability. Those perks could be from a supplementary ability from Stealth/Dex or magoi manipulation through Strength. Of course, that comes at the price of paying magoi. The same is true if they clash against the ability or use the magic carpet.

As you've stated, your proposal is to give a player options. The player chose the Intelligence spec, so of course they have to accept the consequences of requiring those secondary specs or a magic carpet to compete on the same level as a Dom user. Yet, is that fair?

Let's look at the situation in reverse. Opponent B takes to the air with their magic carpet and fires an A-tier ability at their target. Opponent A has the same options in this situation: Clash, dodge with a secondary spec ability, or use their Legend Beast's speed. Clearly, any player smart enough to recognize that winning in combat relies on the use of magoi efficiency and conservation, would use the Legend Beast's speed.

We have gotten to the crux of the imbalance issue now. Both players performed the same actions, yet the amount of magoi spent was in Opponent A's favor. One could argue that Opponent B wasted their magoi by flying first, however that still does not change the end result. Opponent B used 40 magoi to fire an A-tier ability, yet Opponent A only has to spend 0 magoi to dodge it. When the situation is reversed, the intelligence user doesn't have the option to dodge for 0 magoi. All because the Dominance user paid two passives? Requiring two passives to be used does not take away any real advantage Dominance has, as the Legend Beasts gets a magic element without a passive.

Even though I have a character who is a Dominance user, I think that is too much of an unfair advantage. Yes, this example did not consider every variable that is present in combat, but I don't think they are necessary to highlight the imbalance.

I will reiterate again that if the rules for magic carpets are amended to require a magoi cost to operate, then I feel Dominance beasts should receive the same change, at equal costs. As for allowing Dungeon Mounts in combat, I have no real feelings on the matter, but I always felt they were more travel beasts. Obviously, if they are allowed in combat, then I think there should be the same magoi cost as the other mounts.

On the issue of not wanting to spend magoi while traveling or doing socials, I think a very fair and simple clause could be made to rules surrounding mounts stating that any costs associated with mounting only apply during combat

I completely agree with this point. Outside of combat or a situation where Staff wants to dissuade mounts, then I think the magoi cost should be waved. The purpose for the magoi cost, in my opinion, is to serve as balance during combat.

So, this seems to be the overall problem in my opinion (and this is basically ignoring my previous post to some extent after talking to someone else):

DOM users suffer by using their own pool of stamina for the abilities of their beasts and their personal abilities... Lagi has a Legendary Beast, which is understandable why it can move the speed it does. To potentially add more to the stamina they must spend... I feel like it would hurt a DOM user even more, especially if they are Fanalis or Imuchakk due to their own low stamina pool. Something to consider is the fact that DOM is unique and pretty powerful if used correctly though. (This is my personal opinion that many can disagree with, but it's beside the point).

However, given the fact that nobody can match the speed without a magic carpet, as pointed out in the Arena, then it is obvious that some adjustments need to be made: either to the spec itself or to all other Mounts or ride able magic tools like Magic Carpets. The problem is how to achieve such an important task without angering one side or causing something to be over powered.

Not everyone will want to be a DOM user. Not everyone can have a magic carpet. Those at a significant disadvantage Spec-wise, in primary terms, is INT, STL, and DEX I think. Sure, INT has flight spells, but the Gravity Lift; Complete Stage only reaches a max speed of 20 m/s, and that's at Omega.

So... it's hard to figure out. How is it possible to make everything equal and more fair without giving DOM more power over other individuals?

I'm probably either not making sense or not going anywhere with what I'm trying to say... I know not everyone will agree with my first point, but that's just my own personal belief.

Anyway, Yaku's suggestion is unfair due to the fact only Magic Carpet users would be subjected to spending Magoi to fly when DOM users are not bound by the same principles. To be honest, there is only one way to make this fair and unbiased: we make all objects such as Magic Carpets, DOM beasts, and Dungeon Mounts require the Magoi/Stamina spending to achieve a desired speed based on Tier. So, basically using Zadi's proposed idea.

Of course, a primary DOM would still prevail over certain people, such as primary INT, DEX, and STL users if they, the DOM users, used their speed when their opponent has no way to match the same speed without a Magic Carpet or Dungeon Mount (seeing as these only come out once per item with the completion of dungeons). They're only option would be using abilities to block or attempt a counter. On the other hand, with the implemented suggestion by Zadi, primary DOM users would be unable to use the speed of their beasts for the full duration of the fight without any sort of payment.

The addition to Zadi's suggestion would offer a new twist to DOM users and other members for combat.

As for Dungeon Mount health, perhaps we base that on Tier, similar to that of weapons since basing them on speed makes no sense. However, unlike the HP used in the Item System page concerning destruction and repairing, I won't be using numbers since I don't understand what those really mean Tier-wise.

D-Tier || D-Tier or C-Tier HP
C-Tier || C-Tier or B-Tier HP
B-Tier || B-Tier or A-Tier HP
A-Tier || A-Tier HP

OR

D-Tier || basic attack HP
C-Tier || D-Tier or C-Tier HP
B-Tier || C-Tier or B-Tier HP
A-Tier || B-Tier or A-Tier HP

Basically, they'd sort of take damage like a Borg and a basic STR weapon parry to be destroyed, where an attack one Tier above the mounts will kill it, but will not block damage like the Borg and basic STR parry does. It is, in a way, simple, since we use the same principle when killing or disabling foes in combat. Or, they can be killed by using an attack a Tier lower or of equal strength since they are just mounts.

Furthermore, as Garret asked, what would happen if they were die? Obviously they can't be fixed like weapons in terms of a blacksmith, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere that specifically states what to do when they die like when a Weapon Equip breaks for King Vessels and Dark King Vessels. A word count is the only thing that seems to be required. That seems a bit strange considering it can be about anything and then suddenly you have your mount or whatever it is that destroyed, repaired or brought back to life.

Some idea are to find someone to revive the mount, but I only know of Ariella and Garret off the top of my head. Finding them would prove troublesome if they are not in the same country. A resurrection spell is another way, but not everyone is a INT user that knows Life magic, and magic tools normally don't surpass B-Tier or A-Tier. Reviving is an O-Tier ability. Another option is having it revive like players, though I'm sketchy on the details pertaining that scenario. The best option seems to be following the rules of DOM when reviving a fallen mount: the word count. What would go into the word count is up to the role-player, but I'd prefer it not to be random nonsense and have the last sentence say something along the lines of, "Bob's horse mount was delivered from Ivan's Animal Emporium." Maybe have something like what the King Vessels do when their vessel breaks. They have a word count detailing the ritual that transfers the magic circle to another object.

That's just my train of thought.

Let's also do a small amount of math on this matter.

Omega Tier abilities are currently the only ability that is available to everyone who spends enough time to get to the rank, and meet the requisites, that really stands a chance against A-Tier 25 m/s beasts. There are 2 types of speeds for Omega Tier abilities; 30 m/s and 35 m/s.


So, a beast is flying in the air at 25 m/s and a user of a 30 m/s Omega Tier attacks, expending 50 magoi/stamina. How close does the opponent have to be for it to hit?

Response time of the beast is the normal response time of a human, .215 seconds. In that time, at 30 m/s, the ability can travel 6.45 meters. From that point onward it gains 5 meters on the opponent per second, because it is 5 meters faster. An Omega Tier ability in this class may travel 25 meters for Strength, 50 meters for Int and Manipulation. For Strength users, this would take an additional .618~ seconds for it to reach its maximum distance of 25 meters, which is also the time a Dom user has in order to dodge the attack. By regressing the numbers through continual calculations, we find that, against a Strength user, a Dom user only needs to be 10 meters away at all times in order to dodge Omega Tier abilities from Strength Users. This is because they only need to move a little bit over 15 meters in order to escape it;

15m/25m/s = .6 seconds = clearance time just before the attack overtakes them due to difference in speed.

You will find that if they are 9 meters away, they are just a wee bit too close to dodge from movement alone.

Meanwhile, since Legend Beasts go by Int rules for their magic attacks, the same would not hold true since their attacks have a range of 50 meters; if it is an AOE attack, then you would not be able to dodge it at that range even if you were using a speed buff to move 30 m/s. By hovering over the opponent by 10 meters, a Dom user can use a 50 meter cube attack that fires straight forward. A strength user cannot rush forward, to either side, or backwards because by the time that .833 seconds are up, they will already hit by the attack (it is expanding outward and forward at the same time). They take just a smidgeon over .83 seconds to move the 25 meters needed to escape the technique that is centered on them and moving at the same rate as them; it takes .33 seconds for a full on AOE to move from 10 meter altitude to ground level.

The utility and strength of this class means that Strength and Dom are the ideal matchup for a Dom user; they completely dominate the field against strength users, if all is equal with their degree of mastery of their spec. Even when 1 rank below the Strength User, with this current system in place a Dom user of C-Tier or higher can at least ensure that a Strength user does not defeat them with no real effort involved. The example above shows that a Dom user pays nothing to dodge an Omega tier at 10 m/s, but a Strength user must pay 50 magoi/stamina (or sustain an Omega-Tier ability), or use an A-Tier defensive ability, to defend against the Omega-Tier of a Dom user.

This alone is not enough to condemn free riding of a beast. A diverse wheel where different specs are particularly strong against one or two other specs is appropriate, so long as a near equal number of other specs have a proportional advantage against the specialization in question.

Intelligence users:
They have a range of 50 meters, which is equal ground to Dominance users who have a legend beast. At the very least, this means that a Legend Beast cannot attack freely from close by without also being subject to large AOEs... If the opposing Magician has an Omega-Tier AOE that can strike in the same manner as the last example of the Omega-Tier beast user from the Strength Users.

Combat between Intelligence and Manipulation users against Dominance users of equal mastery of their respective specializations is only slightly in favor of the Dom user, as they can still dodge most attacks without expending magoi/stamina. A victor, however, can be determined by the skill level of its combatants.


Now let's get into the other two specs, Dex and Stealth. Dex and Stealth have a seemingly incredible way of handling Dominance, if they have Omega-Tier abilities; their speed buff gives them a stark advantage against the boosted speed of Dom beasts. Their Omega-Tier attacks are 35 m/s... Though the range for Stealth is 35 meters. An attack by Stealth/Dex users of this level would reach 7.525 meters before a Dom user can begin moving. From there, the attack gains 10 meters per second of movement. This looks good, from this angel... However, taking into consideration that AOE for Stealth is 25 meters in size, this means that the Dom beast only has to move on a side-strafing style 12.5 meters. This can be done in .5 seconds. This means that a Dom user need only be 12.775 (19.775 meters away if the explosion generates from the ground level somehow and makes its way up) meters away in order to dodge an explosive that fires off mid-air.

Against Dex, Dex has a much greater range meaning it has more open space to catch up to the Dom user. If we consider a blast that explodes outward, like the example of the Dom user's attack in the Strength example, then we would understand that the fastest way to dodge that attack is by going to the side; you only need to dodge 25 meters, at maximum, if you choose a particular side to dodge by. Otherwise, the maximum would be up to 60 meters, since it can continue traveling forward to that point. In order to be able to move 25 meters before being hit, they would need to be 42.475 meters away. This makes Dex the only specialization that is able to fight against Dom on equal footing.


*Please keep in mind, this is only when using Omega-Tier attacks. At A-Tier a Dom user is guaranteed a free dodge against any A-Tier and below attacks that occur more than 5.375m (str, int, man) or 13.65/21.45m (depending on spec - stl, dex) away from them. This is not the case for any other specialization, as they have to spend magoi/stamina to move quickly.


Matchups:

Dom has an Absolute advantage over:
Strength

Dom has a Moderate advantage over (can be overcome by use of good tactics):
Intelligence, Manipulation, Stealth

Dom has a Slight advantage over (It is almost an even playing field):
Dexterity


By making the speed bonus the user obtains cost 1 magoi/stamina per 1 m/s while in combat (a price all other specs have to pay a minimum of 2x the amount suggested for an equal speed buff), this provides a means of stopping an indefinite 'you can never hit me' tactic while retaining the fact that it is a clear advantage over what most other specs automatically obtain as part of the specialization's kit.


Some people may find this particularly distasteful. However, an alternative is to remove the capability of a speed buff, and only allow 4 basic speeds; 5 m/s at D-Tier, 7.5 m/s at C, 10 m/s at B and 15 m/s at A (with additional modes of movement at perhaps half that speed, such as when a creature can fly, swim, walk and burrow; one would be at max, the rest would be at half that).

This would down the rank of effectiveness by 1 or 2 tiers of my previous chart, so that Dom would only be moderately effective with its perk against Strength, equal footing with its perk against Int, Man, Stl, and moderately ineffective with its perk against Dom. This option would also require the same limitations of all other free-use modes of movement, including Magic Carpets.

@Azix

In the example you gave, I see the magician as the holding the clear magoi usage advantage. However, that requires the magician to be smart and fight a battle of attrition against the Dom user. Each time the Dom player uses an A-tier ability they will spend 40/20 magoi which can be sustained for 3 turns at most for a total potential cost of 80 magoi(40+20+20) The Int user can dodge each attack for a total of 75 magoi(25+25+25). Now a 5 magoi difference doesn't seem very clear, but we are talking ideal situations. In a real battle it is likely that the magician won't even need to use their max speed in order to avoid taking damage based on how we have seen battles go on the forum. The dom user needs to be attacking from a closer distance than their max range in order to require the magicians use of max speed to dodge. So realistically we can probably expect the magician to spend more along the lines of 60 or 50 magoi unless the dom user closes distance.

If the dom user does close distance, then their speed to dodge abilities becomes less relevant. Especially against magicians who's spec allows them to attack opponents in all kinds of sneaky ways they can't reasonably dodge without metagaming. Of course, I'm making this statement under the assumption that the movement to nerf acceleration and deceleration of beast speeds being discussed in the topic linked below passes.

https://magiworld.forumotion.com/t6128-we-need-a-pvp-rule-set

The last thing I'd like to say is that my post honestly wasn't giving Dom Beasts much consideration. I was thinking mostly about dungeon beast mounts or normal beast mounts such as the horses and other mundane mounts I was suggesting previously in another thread. I realize saying "beast mounts" was probably confusing in that regard.

Thank you for your post as it brought my focus to the matter of Dom beasts. Despite my above comments on how I think the magician had the advantage, I also understand the concerns of why the Dom user's costless movement speed is an issue. I'd still prefer they get different treatment though. Such as having a different stamina/magoi cost rate or making them suffer a penalty to ability range/speed.

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@Adrastos

Why does a one size fits all blanket rule have to be the "only" fair and unbiased approach we can take? I appreciate your participation in the discussion and respect your perception that my idea was unfair. But I'd like to humbly request you remain open to discussing other options with my as I refine my suggestion based on feedback.

How do you feel about non-Dom beasts not requiring a cost, but also having a lower max speed cap?

As for Dom Beasts, what do you think about other "costs" aside from magoi such as limiting the range of their abilities while mounted, the speed of the beast itself as they carry a rider?

As for health, I also think these should be treated differently depending on the vehicle being used. Mundane mounts should be 1 shot kills. Dungeon beasts going by the health system you mentioned is fine with me. Magic Carpets should remain indestructible, but have a damage cap of A-tier at which point the magic circle on them is damaged and they stop working for that thread.

As for mount deaths, here are my thoughts:
Mundane mounts that die need to be purchased again. Dungeon Beasts can be healed/revived with a word count. Magic Carpets can restore themselves in the next thread.

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@Garret

Thank you for doing the math that I and others were not willing to do. Your industrious efforts are appreciated.

With this clearer picture drawn of how the specs line up against Dom, I think it's safe to say that nerfing is in order.

My suggestion wouldn't be to take away the speed boost perk, but rather limit it to a 1 post thing with a cool down or so that it can only be maintained in one direction and requires a post of acceleration building up to that speed. This way the perk can't be used all over the place to abusive levels, but could still remain and be useful in situational context.

I would still prefer not to see anything other than the magic tool(flying carpet) cost magoi. So I'd be grateful if you could ponder more suggestions to help balance things out.

In the example you gave, I see the magician as the holding the clear magoi usage advantage. However, that requires the magician to be smart and fight a battle of attrition against the Dom user. Each time the Dom player uses an A-tier ability they will spend 40/20 magoi which can be sustained for 3 turns at most for a total potential cost of 80 magoi(40+20+20) The Int user can dodge each attack for a total of 75 magoi(25+25+25). Now a 5 magoi difference doesn't seem very clear, but we are talking ideal situations. In a real battle it is likely that the magician won't even need to use their max speed in order to avoid taking damage based on how we have seen battles go on the forum. The dom user needs to be attacking from a closer distance than their max range in order to require the magicians use of max speed to dodge. So realistically we can probably expect the magician to spend more along the lines of 60 or 50 magoi unless the dom user closes distance.

You do raise a good point, however you did miss the second part of my example. In the case of the intelligence user attacking, they use an A-tier with the potential cost of 80 magoi, as you listed above. The dom user still spends 0 magoi to dodge, assuming they can dodge (the distance between the two opponents is enough for the Dom user to simply move out of the way).

I agree that the five point difference is imbalanced in the magician's favor in your example. However, the difference is much greater with the situation reversed. For this reason, I feel that the dom user having reduced ability range or ability speed does not solve the balance issue. While they would have a harder time attacking their opponent, they still have no issues avoiding attacks.

My suggestion wouldn't be to take away the speed boost perk, but rather limit it to a 1 post thing with a cool down or so that it can only be maintained in one direction and requires a post of acceleration building up to that speed. This way the perk can't be used all over the place to abusive levels, but could still remain and be useful in situational context.

As you've made clear, you don't feel a magoi cost should be attributed to Dom beasts in regards to mounted combat. This suggestion is quite possibly the best one you've made to alleviate the need for a magoi cost. I could accept a change similar to this, but I would like to explore extending the length of the speed boost to more than one post, if possible. While Dominance requires some nerfing, I don't want to see it over-nerfed.

The only problem I do see with this suggestion is the unfortunate side-effect of creating a more complex system. Since it has been requested that any system regarding Mounts in general is simple, I have to raise this point. We are now looking at potentially three different sets of rules, one for each type of mount: Carpets, Dungeon/Mundane, and Dom Beast.

Carpets would be invincible while requiring a magoi cost. (Possible additions to having a Carpet "die" in combat as well)
Dom Beasts would have a speed boost mechanic but not require a magoi cost.
Dungeon/Mundane Mounts would not have a magoi cost, but would have a unique health system and their own possible speed rules.

While that may not seem like much to some people, that does add a level of complexity that some members might not be comfortable with. To be honest, it would seem much simpler to say Dungeon Mounts/Mundane shouldn't be used in combat and figure out a system for Dom Beasts and Carpets that provides balance. Obviously I understand that this may not be a popular opinion, but I believe it would keep some semblance of simplicity.

I think the suggestion of having a cooldown would be pretty good; but have it across the board. Same cooldown as abilities.

*Addendum: maybe a 2 post sustain, and a 1 post cooldown, where the cooldown has to be done on the ground or surface level of water (in the case of swimmers). This provides the perk of being able to move fast without cost, while also keeping it from being a farce. Alternatively, 3 post sustain and 2 post cooldown would seem legit as well.

I think that we can keep it all simple by simply presenting the rules for these three different things separate. By that I mean having the magic carpet's details in the item description. The normal mount info in their item description. The dungeon beast mount info in their item description. The dom beasts info in the systems page that already exists.

In this way we don't make an entirely new "mounts" systems page and instead just have the relevant information presented where it matters. This would allow players to digest the information relevant to them as they come across a need for it.

That being said, I'm not terribly opposed to either Azix or Garret's above suggestions.

P.S. @Azix

I was hoping this paragraph covered your second scenario.

Spoiler:

I apologize, as it also makes assumptions based on my response to the first scenario. My point was generally that the magician needed to fight smarter and take an indirect approach with their spells. But thinking on it more I realize not all magicians have an arsenal with the right spells to take advantage of that approach. So depending on the matchup I can concede that it could be really unfair for the magician, especially if they are limited to straightforward approaches and attacks.