Discussion: Dom Rage Mode

It's been brought to my attention that the Dom Spec Rage Mode perk had conditions around it that were different from what I thought it's original meaning implied:

Original Rage Mode wrote:If, at any given time, you are killed, your beast may enter a “Rage Mode.” You pet will become enraged that you have fallen in battle and will be allowed to perform one free basic attack against what killed you. This does not allow the use of an ability, as you will be dead. This attack cannot be blocked.

The way it specifies "Basic Attacks" and "Not allow the use of an ability" had given me a misunderstanding over the perk.

I took this to mean while it "cannot be blocked" it could still be clashed with by abilities or dodged. I was under the impression that it couldn't be blocked with a weapon or something like that. A basic defense that doesn't utilize an ability.

When I brought this up, I was informed that I was wrong and the following edits were made so the intended function would be more clear:

New Rage Mode wrote:If, at any given time, you are killed, your beast may enter a “Rage Mode.” You pet will become enraged that you have fallen in battle and will be allowed to perform one free basic attack against what killed you. This does not allow the use of an ability, as you will be dead. This attack cannot be blocked or clashed with, though it may be dodged.

So this means a max tier Dom user with maxed beasts deals A+B unblockable/unclashable damage on death. The attacks can be dodged, but dodging isn't always an option and beast speeds can get fairly fast at the higher tiers. Compounded by the fact that any dom user worth his salt would have his beasts surrounding their opponent or otherwise in position to attack from two angles, dodging is even more unlikely.

Lets look at this from another angle, say we have a D-tier dom user who dies. Their beast goes into a rage mode that would allow them to not only clash with an Omega tier ability, they could rip right through it and deal damage to the caster. Yes, D-tier damage, but the IC context of that is simply ridiculous. Simply being enraged would not grant a beast that level of a buff in power.

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Personally I think this perk is a little broken and somewhat silly from a IC point of view, I'd like to go on to make a suggestion for how a better version of it might work. One that still gives the dom user value, provides more options to the player, and makes sense in-character.

Suggested Rage Mode wrote:If, at any given time, you are killed, your beast may enter a “Rage Mode.” Your pet will become enraged that you have fallen in battle and will be allowed to execute one of three methods of retaliation. If you have multiple pets, you may choose different choices for each beast.

Guardian's Wrath ~ The beast will be limited to the task of defending themselves and their tamer's corpse. However, the rper may continue to control the beast for the duration of the thread as they normally would. This allows them to guard their corpses to prevent looting items and other malicious attempts from their killers. The beast may fight to kill the attackers, but may not pursue if they attempt to flee or otherwise cease harassment of the tamer's character. Items can't be looted until the beast is killed.

Revenger's Cry ~ The beast makes one final last ditch effort to assault their tamer's killer. Fueled by rage, the beast executes an attack that acts as an ability of one tier above their current tier. The attack must be made like a "basic attack" meaning no magic or large AOE effects, however the damage, speed, and range, are all based on ability standards. Following this attack, the beast is exhausted and is rendered incapable of further combat.

Enraged Flight ~ The beast is driven to prioritize running away at all cost. Beast movement speed is doubled and you are given a minimum of three posts of control over it to determine its fate. Each turn you lose 10 stamina/magoi and you have until it runs out or your three posts is up if you don't have more than 30 stamina/magoi. You may use this time for the beast to flee, or you may use it to have the beast try and carry your corpse to a safer location where revival, protection from looting, or a plot oriented re-birth location awaits. If the fleeing beast manages to get at least 30m away from the attackers then they can safely exit the topic.

Code:

Please leave your opinions if you agree with me that the current rage mode needs updating. In addition, please leave your thoughts on my suggested update and give comments on how to improve it or even put your own suggested updates forward for community review.

Oh! A close contender for the list was an idea limited to legend beasts. A suicide magic AOE blast that does a tier higher damage. Much more area of damage, but the cost is that the beast can't be revived and a new one must be obtained to replace it.

If people like this final sacrifice kind of idea, let me know and I'll write out a proper version.

Well I do somewhat agree the current Rage mode, is somewhat broken that if two roleplayers wanted, they could Manipulate this to their advantage. 1 knows revival methods and other has a dorm. Potentially a free Omega hit.  Or if one person had a delayed reaction revial. 

Shots revial spell, into air directlly above self. Slices own neck. Next post spell comes back brining them back.

Id to like this idea, and it has my support.

imho dom shouldn't really have the last ditch thing on death since it's already the most versatile spec rivaling int and it's the best spec imo and no other spec have that on death activation thing. Dom can  have free mobility, free flight, free meatshield, half cost skills, and they can even use all their skills during Djinn Equip(probably).

Anyway so that what Kab said wouldn't happen (killing yourself won't work since the rage will attack those that killed you, though you can do a suicide rush instead as easily) I suggest that if the rage activated all of the dom user's stamina/magoi would be depleted. IC it makes sense because the dom beast takes stamina from their master. And the rage will automatically activate, means you cannot control if it activate or not. This makes it a choice, if you want a safety net or if you want to be revived during combat using a skill and fight again if you die.

That means we need to add another choice on your list I guess lol. Where a beast doesn't rage if you die. XD

That and only your main pet should have rage.

Other than that... I love the types of rage lol choices yay!

I have to agree with Hoho as for committing suicide probably wouldnt work because the beast will have to kill the attacker/ the person who made you die. Even though it would work, Imho it will be weird because the beast would attack the enemy who are not actually killing the you.

However, I think by giving dom user the ability to choose on what kind of rage mode that you want to choose, it will give more flexibility for themselves, especially when the dom user are dead. Plus it also give you some kind of benefit but also some kind of disadvantages/risks that make this rage mode not OP, imo

I really like the idea of Enraged Flight the most and I want to know more about this final sacrifice mode. ^^

I have to ask where this came from:

Lets look at this from another angle, say we have a D-tier dom user who dies. Their beast goes into a rage mode that would allow them to not only clash with an Omega tier ability, they could rip right through it and deal damage to the caster. Yes, D-tier damage, but the IC context of that is simply ridiculous. Simply being enraged would not grant a beast that level of a buff in power.

Nothing in the rage mode indicates they can clash with an omega tier ability, or clash, period. It is a basic attack. If you can kill them before they hit you, bravo, problem solved... (which was kind of the intention to begin with - take out the beasts THEN kill their master). Their basic, non-ability attack has no effect on any attack you perform, thus killing it before it hits you is the best option. You simply cannot clash with their attack. If your attack did not kill them, their attack would go through.


Aside from that, I like the idea of the different rage modes, though Dom is already a pain to keep up with, management wise. Keeping track of roles, on top of abilities and then adding which rage mode you get adds even more stuff to keep track of.

Ariella Negri wrote:I have to ask where this came from:

Lets look at this from another angle, say we have a D-tier dom user who dies. Their beast goes into a rage mode that would allow them to not only clash with an Omega tier ability, they could rip right through it and deal damage to the caster. Yes, D-tier damage, but the IC context of that is simply ridiculous. Simply being enraged would not grant a beast that level of a buff in power.

Nothing in the rage mode indicates they can clash with an omega tier ability, or clash, period. It is a basic attack. If you can kill them before they hit you, bravo, problem solved... (which was kind of the intention to begin with - take out the beasts THEN kill their master). Their basic, non-ability attack has no effect on any attack you perform, thus killing it before it hits you is the best option. You simply cannot clash with their attack. If your attack did not kill them, their attack would go through.

Based on the discussion I had over skype and the wording that the rage mode attack "can't be clashed with" heavily implies that the beast can just tank through any attack. It isn't obvious that you can kill the beast with an ability in the current wording. Nor is it clear or obvious whether or not you have to avoid hitting them on their attacking limb(a clash) when attempting to deal lethal damage.

There just isn't enough information here to know these details.

Ariella Negri wrote:Aside from that, I like the idea of the different rage modes, though Dom is already a pain to keep up with, management wise. Keeping track of roles, on top of abilities and then adding which rage mode you get adds even more stuff to keep track of.

Why would you have to add which rage mode you get? Don't make it part of the apps. Just let someone choose on death. If they die a second time, let them choose all over again and even change it up if they want. The only tracking this system would require is whether or not the player is using the rage mode right. Their opponent would be expected to monitor that and if there was any trouble they saw, staff could be contacted to deal with the situation as needed.

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Noir Ecryola wrote:I really like the idea of Enraged Flight the most and I want to know more about this final sacrifice mode. ^^

I'd like to see at least one or more players giving their thoughts on it first.

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Hohotaro wrote:That means we need to add another choice on your list I guess lol. Where a beast doesn't rage if you die. XD

Could you elaborate more and put forward a suggestion on how that would work? What would the benefits be?

@Yaku That was for my suggestion of depleting the stamina/magoi of the player if he died and used rage mode. It's only beneficial then cause you can be revived with your remaining stamina intact.

Anyway one reason why I suggested the depletion of magoi as a balance for the rage mode is because we have 2 primary spec thing in play right now. For example a primary dom and second primary str can easily sacrifice his beasts(Revenger's Cry) to have an advantage and still be very competitive using his str spec. In fact he might use all omega skills as str and he doesn't really lose anything special sacrificing his pets. Omega Tier and A-Tier attack at the same time.

If there's depletion of stamina/magoi if you die and rage is used then it will be what it's supposed to be, a last resort and not something that can be abused. :D

I disagree with the first and third options, simply because this gives an advantage no other spec has (which seemed to be your primary complaint over skype) of preventing anything being looted from the body. This breaks a basic forum system rule of being able to loot from a body if you kill that person (one of the few system rules in place to encourage PVP). Since your complaint seemed to be against "game-breaking mechanics", then both the first and third options would also be game-breaking, as it prevents a system mechanic. As for the second option, this is basically what is already in place, but it gives ability stats to their attack. It also would allow clashing, but it seems the most viable of all the options you listed, as it doesn't fall under "god-mode" and also does not break basic system mechanics.

Personally, if I went through the effort to kill someone, I think it would be pretty BS if I wasn't allowed to loot SOMETHING off their body. It takes a lot to manage to kill someone, ESPECIALLY a dom user, as they has living tools at their disposal. To have the looting ripped away just makes it not even worth the effort to kill them.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT


A dom party and i wasn't invited?





Let me get a crack at this.. i will never kill myself..ever..for the sake of any sort of rage mode personally. Now that we got that out of the way, lets go through the ideas  you gave with the different rage modes as a dominance pioneer, and using el drago as an example

Guardians wrath  and.... High Intelligence- El Drago has lived for a long time, and its intelligence is massive, a legacy from the ancient dragons before our time.

Now the matter at hand is that you feel as if the proper looting rules involving the  guardians wrath would be clashing against eachother, but in the term of legend beast and a Paring Intelligence passive they contain, i feel as if this is valid that  your remaining magoi should transfer over to the legend beast and that it wouldn't take the death of their partner laying down. Now heres a sense, preventing items to not be looted, you can go for an item, el drago can go for broke and launch omega attacks until he tires,  you making a reach for that item and the pet not giving a fuck up to the point he would rather break it and kill you as well is fair game. There can be a chance  to loot the body in  the sense of free form mechanics, but  the remaining pets would still have a chance to counteract your actions. I wouldn't make it an "Unlootable clause", but more so continuing pvp until the remaining enemies  are dispatched. You still have to work for that looting attempt, and thats the middle ground between Yaku and Ari..and i think that's the most fair route to go with this.


Enraged Flight ~ ok so  bouncing at 50 meters per second... im gone... and everything gone..considering similar and future legendary builds to mine..its unfair... range will cap itself unless u go extreme or omega tier moves and even then... extreme might be the fastest chance. So here is what i compose... a rand drop.... Staff  layers your items from 1 to  or how much of whatever you have thats lootable and puts a drop rate like this....

1 stick
2 huang
3 treasure

blah blah.... then this  

Random number (1,3) : 1

A rand out of 3..  to determine  a drop rate... so with the third rage... loot is replaced with drop rate. Drop  rate can be altered with a guarantee that the killer will get some if the enraged flight is used... its a guarantee of something but it might not be what they want. Fair enough..someone gains..someone loses.. thats the consensus of looting and they lost a life and a magoi drop from dying...then have to do some pyramid side plot bs to come back to life without a magician to rez them in a few days..what more do you really want? A magoi drop is enough punishment..esp for the classes that aren't human...unless ur azix or zadi, then they still 1 up you in that sense.

Anyway... thats something worth experimenting and my 2 cents

I've gotta say, Dom is rather OP without the "Rage Mode" involved. Lagi has shown that to be true several times with Zygus (before El Drago) and especially with El Drago. With how people are using Dom passives, Dom has basically become Int but with less magic types yet more passive skills.

This was a short post with a hopefully clear point; I personally don't think Dom even needs Rage Mode, much less a more complex version (not that Yaku's idea is all that complex). In terms of looting a dead Dom's corpse - the beast can just run away with the corpse, Rage Mode or not (if it isn't already dead).

It seems this discussion has hit somewhat of a stalemate... I would fight against anything that outright prevents looting of a corpse, as it really does remove the one benefit of PvP on the site, aside from "oh look, i think I am a bad ass"

I can understand wanting some versatility to the rage mode, but it was intended as a simple, last ditch effort on the part of an attached pet, the concept being that it was so angered by its master's death, that it goes berserk. It was not intended to be complex in any way, just a tiny little addendum to offer something unique to the spec.

So my question:

Scrap Rage Mode?
Add Rage Mode options?
Keep Rage Mode the same?

toss your opinions below and lets see if we can get more than 2-3 people in on this~

I think it's a fantastic idea, we need to keep the enemy at bay and this brings the best balance for dominance beast users. The rand roll for loot should be rolled by staff for three categories, covering the sense of looting as well.

Revengers cry should not cap out at A rank, making it Omega tier for A rank beasts. It already loses out to abilities because abilities always win kinda sorta?

Everything seems fine, but the assumed prowess that Main Dom users would always put their beasts at the forefront. That's where the omega moves are, that's where the half cost moves are. In a realistic battle, the beats would be the first to go, and magoi is pumped into it. There is nothing wrong with any of these abilities, because in the sense of getting rid of the legendary animal first, that's what you should be doing.

Guardians wrath should clarify that beasts should still utilize their abilities... I don't want a misunderstanding that they can only use basics and they are useless without us.


Enraged Flight> No opinion...


Have a problem with not being able to loot? Keep these abilities, this is your incentive of attacking the beast first. It's all in perspective, there is nothing to fight against.

Guardian's Wrath – I disagree with this, as with the Dom user dead, they are unable to issue commands for the beast to follow. Also, if the Dom user is dead, the magoi count hits 0. If it were simple basic attacks, I would not necessarily object, but beyond that, Player dead = unable to give commands = no abilities used by beast.

Revenger’s Cry – I would want this limited to A-tier damage at a max, as anything higher is just ridiculous. This is a FREE attack offered once the Dom user is dead, making it higher than A-tier damage would be too much.

Enraged Flight – I have no problem with it running away to avoid being killed, but being able to prevent looting or anything like that just seems to be entirely too much.

Keep in mind, these are all considered complete LAST DITCH efforts… they should not give a huge advantage over other specs, as Dom already has MASSIVE versatility on its side. If it is a primary Dom user, even more so with Legend beasts. Lagi has already proven time and again that, short of having a magic carpet, a Legend beast is damned near impossible to keep up with, let alone fight against, so offering them such massive advantages AFTER the player has perished seems completely unbalanced for any other spec. Also, no other spec has any hope at all of preventing looting, so I will most likely deny anything that prevents looting a corpse.

Exception to guardian should be intelligence. Beasts with that perk should be able to act on their own.

Beasts do not have their own stamina/magoi count, they rely on their Master's pool. Master dead = 0 magoi/stamina = cannot use abilities.

Before I try to re-address my opinion concerning this thread's main topic, I would like to just comment; I can't take you seriously with that name and avatar, Lagi. Just...I can't. I don't even know why you would do something do strange so I'm not going to ask. Just..."fix" that if you want at least me to take you seriously again.

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Anyway;

Ariella Negri wrote:Guardian's Wrath – I disagree with this, as with the Dom user dead, they are unable to issue commands for the beast to follow. Also, if the Dom user is dead, the magoi count hits 0. If it were simple basic attacks, I would not necessarily object, but beyond that, Player dead = unable to give commands = no abilities used by beast.

Revenger’s Cry – I would want this limited to A-tier damage at a max, as anything higher is just ridiculous. This is a FREE attack offered once the Dom user is dead, making it higher than A-tier damage would be too much.

Enraged Flight – I have no problem with it running away to avoid being killed, but being able to prevent looting or anything like that just seems to be entirely too much.

Keep in mind, these are all considered complete LAST DITCH efforts… they should not give a huge advantage over other specs, as Dom already has MASSIVE versatility on its side. If it is a primary Dom user, even more so with Legend beasts. Lagi has already proven time and again that, short of having a magic carpet, a Legend beast is damned near impossible to keep up with, let alone fight against, so offering them such massive advantages AFTER the player has perished seems completely unbalanced for any other spec. Also, no other spec has any hope at all of preventing looting, so I will most likely deny anything that prevents looting a corpse.

The stuff I highlighted in red sums up my concerns about this entire Dom Rage Mode thread; it is not necessary to have Dom Rage Mode at all. As Ari said, Dom is equal in versatility (if not more so) than the Int spec in terms of primary spec power. In terms of secondary/tertiary spec power, Int loses. However, I wholeheartedly believe that Dom is THE most versatile spec AND the most powerful. Dom has more defense than Int, more non-ability strength than Str, able to use ALL status effects like Stealth, but "falls short" (pun pun pun!) against Dex's speed and range. Granted, Dex has limited non-ability power (ammunition limits) unlike Dom (arrow-like animals with speed boost passive). And then there are the one-of-a-kind passives that Int isn't even capable of keeping up with. Int must use magoi to use the D-tier passive abilities of combo-magic and Borgs can't be healed like a Dom beast (which can end up being more durable than even a borg, even without Legend Beast status).

So yeah...Dom Rage Mode "makes sense" but not for balancing purposes.

I'd support a removal of rage mode entirely as well. Only reason I offered a "better" rage mode suggestion is because it was my impression that staff felt rage mode was needed for dom to be on par with the other specs. I agree with Zadi on this though, I don't think it's needed for Dom to be unique and strong in its own right.

Staff discussed it and as we have not received any other feedback, here we go:

Dominance will no longer offer a Rage mode, for balance reasons~