Word Counts

Greetings!

Recently the topic of word counts has been tossed back and forth amongst staff, it seems that some feel as if the days of WC are behind RP sites.   However, the question is it behind Magi World?  Let us know what you're thoughts on it are. Are you for them as is? Perhaps you don't mind them but would like some lowered? Or perhaps you're more into a get out what you put in a system of grading?

The ideas in the simplest forums come to these three:

Se we got either make a minimum post count of 200 and remove WC

Remove some WC  and lower the rest

Lower WC across the board and hit some harder than others

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Please don't argue, however debating is welcomed.  Please try to keep the conversation here or in the VENTING channel of discord to prevent making General Chat flooded with possible arguments. Keep in mind those who are disrespectful and become hostile will be punished.

I feel like this is true, sites that don't choose to evolve fade away, I do feel there should be a min word count per post but not a super high one. Say 200 is a good number, also lower total required wordcount across the board to reflect this, while wordcount is good it can make things drag on instead of being to the point.

I feel like this is something only now can be more pushed due to certain new mods. I disagree with completely changing the way the site works in regards to wordcount. You should have added a "lower WC for some aspects of the site, like training" option.

I think we all can agree training takes up far too much time and is unnecessary. I understand some training wordcount, but not what it is right now. Jobs becoming post based rather than word count based simply only splits the word count into posts, with each post having a minimum word count.

It should make no difference whether there are 5 posts with 500 words total or 1 post with 500 words total. Let the writer decide how they want to write their word count. Post based does not get rid of word counts like many think, it exists, just now you further limit the options of how writers structure their threads. I do not like the direction this site is going with this poll, and do not intend to stay if it changes so radically.

Word Count should only matter in events

Well the poll is closed but I do believe in lowering or eliminating all word count. At the very least for training.

Training right now has a busted WC. If you actually do some math, the wc on this site is inconceivable. That goes for general leveling aswell.

Let's take a magic weapon for instance, you would need a total of 12k words to train it completely. In a players life time they might recieve COPIOUS magic weapons which will never fully mature.

The same issue applies to Household/Djinn training which easily surpasses 20 ish Thousand words.

My point and which will always be my point, is that a novel is typically 50k words. However on magi, we will write the equivalent of several novels before we max out a character.

I personally would prefer other factors to this. I feel as though the entire point of wcs is to make challenges for the player and to create a way to earn our rewards . I understand that but I don't feel as if Wcs are an effective way of doing this.

At the very least I don't not believe that relying on them solely or ass heavily does anything in particular but slow the progression of player characters, and diminish the quality of storytelling.

Effective storytelling does not require a heavy toll on words. Using language effectively will get you places in a story with ease and efficiency. I can deliver a scene with great impact without breaking 500 words, it's all in the skill and understanding the writer has.

What I'm saying is that how things are, QUANTITY over quality. Writing a lot regardless of how bad it is, is almost ALWAYS BETTER. That is the bane of wc grind based progession

Needless to say this is a roleplaying site and one that heavily relies on combat based character progression. There has to be a way of easily challenging and progressing players in a equal scenario.

Furthermore players deserve a respectable way to aquire power. Though it would be of note, that by eliminating the training word count the focus of the power creep will switch from the grind to general tactical/combat system knowledge and wisdom. In my opinion, this is a better option all together.

What do I think should be done?

Quite frankly I have no real faith that Wcs will be completely eliminated. However, I will push for them to be greatly reduced. There are many strategies and implementing any will ease the quality of life.

Please begin paying attention to and voicing your opinions on the quality of life aspects of the system. I play the grindiest Role playing game in the world. Disgae. The only reason I can sit and grind out literally infinite levels is that they have improved the quality of life IMMENSELY with every game.

Growth is simply a part of the challenges in the game, it itself is just a part of the goal. It doesn't feel like a hindrance.

Anyway.

Firstly out right remove the training requirements or greatly reduce them for Magic Weapons. At the very least make the cost a flat fee. The upwards staggering of the WC greatly trumps the benefits of having 1k cost initially.

Release A tier Vouchers and/or half cost vouchers. We only get a limited number of A tier abilities NATURALLY, with the exception of items. It would be of no bad consequences to allow us further ease into maturing our characters natural abilities.

Class training in general is also ass. Though I would rather perform Class training and then not have to worry about ability training for said class. In some sites, players simply get a certain amount of "slots" for abilities and can make those abilities on the spot with no cost. It's incredible to simply imagine out your characters entire preferred way of fighting and not struggle day after day with trying to fit in an efficient moment to train.

Regardless of how you all solve it I hope it gets further thought and an executive decision can be made soon. In the end having multiple conversations that don't lead to change or testing is a real waste of time.

i'm just going to copy paste what i had previously said in the staff channel.

okay. so, i'll explain my side of this debate for discussion purposes. i've voiced it before but i'll put it a bit more organized. in my opinion, i'm not looking for a complete rip out of the word count. i know there are some people who like it so i think a compromise could be okay? if you want a strong opinion, i'd get rid of them nearly in its entirety and implement something similar to what knux proposed.

overall
i do not like word counts as much as i did when i had first started on this site. keep in mind that after i left this site the first time, i have been on other sites with word counts and without word counts. i've seen how other sites function, what works for them, as well as what felt bad and what felt good to me as a member. yes. a part of my personal desire to get rid of word counts is laziness. but it isn't what it is entirely.

personally, i like having a lot of freedom in my writing and with my characters. word counts, for me, feel very restricting. smaller word counts as a minimum, i don't mind. but when i am forced to try and write obscene amounts (for me) for a reward i don't feel is worth the time it takes me, the word count stops being attractive.

i don't really write a lot. my writing went from quantity to quality. i don't like fluffing up my writing because it makes it hate it. me, hating my writing, makes me not want to write.

i would recommend, if we do keep the word counts, to go through and look at all of them. i can help and give opinions on which i see are a bit too much.

jobs
these should keep their word counts. reductions could be applied with coupons as they already have been. this is the main source of EXP and huang. on every site, i expect jobs / missions to have some sort of minimum requirement to complete. such as, reach page 2 or write x amount of words.

abilities
these don't really need a word count reduction either because we have coupons that can be used to purchase them. however, i would vouch for adding a tier coupons as well as revamping the magic weapon ability word counts to match with the normal word counts. there is no reason for them to have scaling word counts because for a tier tools, it gets insane.

we have a limit on abilities able to be trained regardless of what tier they are. i don't see the issue with lower tier coupons in comparison to a tier coupons. so what if they're more limited? it doesn't make sense to not add them to me.

djinn
i can't really speak on this too heavily. i know this is an "end game" type power spike. it's rare to get, i get that. i would ask for these to get looked over? or at least a reduction to household word counts? or perhaps a thread requirement with the djinn owner. i am biased because i am a household holder but i feel like it would shave off the 7k word count. if there was a thread requirement, i wouldn't mind? i like writing with jahan.

class
i don't mind the word count on this too much but it might be because i've already done mine..? since they're required to be written in a time span of a while because it's a class, gives a bit more content to write about.

that should be it unless i missed anything.

it's hard for me to vote because i don't want such a huge drastic change to drive people away who have been concrete here for years without a plan to pull newer. but a little quality of life doesn't hurt.

coupons, reductions in certain areas, etc.

My vote is to reduce wordcounts across the board with a twist, the system I thought of.

RP badges, you get a badge with every rank up. Example: Once you become C rank you get a D rank badge that lowers the wc of missions d rand lower. B rank, a c rank badge...etc etc.

25% wc reduction when you get the badge. The badges go to 40% at omega tier when you buy the extension in fates fortune at omega tier so you get a small discount and go through the motions. It adds a bit more of an end game goal which things get easier when you plateau in the height of your story and potential.

Remove Omega tier wc fir those omega tier missions, you have one objective besides your main one, survive. Everything is on the line and a good majority of staff modding these kinds of missions will take the kids gloves off. Focus less on hitting that wc and more on survival and being precise with your strategy.


A tier abilities wc remain unchanged, but weapon abilities for magic weapons now match that wc instead of being so damn outrageous.

ability wc should not be touched, we have voucher to buy the core abilities. We open vouchers to a tier abilities with the price being 30 k an ability. no discount for omega tier abilities/extreme magic. No discount for household/dmv/mv wc.

that's my stance if we get most of my idea or my vote would be altered to change the missions wc with the use of badges/ open up the vouchers to A tier.

Well, I think word counts should be reviewed individually
Travel WC should be removed all together.
Magic Weapon magic learning and Stuff related to MV, and DMV are too high and should take drastic cut.
Everything else needs like a 50% cut.

In response to Lagis idea. I feel we ahould be encouraging the opposite behavior. We want people to come in and be able to get on a faor ground as fast as possible, not having to earn a bade and delay newbies more for not having been here.

Reducing the lowest word counts and leaving the highest word counts the same is ultimately a gross blunder. It is counter intuitive. Writing 500-1500 words is far less challenging than 2000. The Djinn costs are also insane. earning a djinn is already the hardest task to complete on this website that is next to training it.

A tier abilities are extremely limited as it is and it won't hurt to simply make it easier to gather the more integral parts of a players kit.

Please don't make the mistake of lowering only the lowest word counts, please inevitably lower the HIGHEST Wcs.

Player progression does not need to be established via a typing contest. Reward people for being creative and clever not just diligent.

The only word count I want to be reduced is the magic weapon spells. They’re higher than djinn training word counts, which feels unacceptable given how important MVs and DMVs are supposed to be in the site’s lore. Everything else can stay the same, seeing as we have ability vouchers to remove training abilities and the fast travel to no longer write traveling from one location to another.

Abilities

Many people desire A-Tier ability vouchers, which you’re only allowed 5 at Omega unless you purchase more slots. Of course, this doesn’t include the decision of many players slapping A-Tier spells on every slot on their A-Tier Magic Weapons or Djinns, but aside from Extreme Magic, these are still pretty powerful and potent abilities, ones which I do not believe should be given at the cost of huang. “But I’m not getting the ability for free, I’m paying for it,” some will say. Yes, you are, but if we allowed vouchers for A-tier spells, people would be buying all of those extra slots that are tied to other outlets. You don’t have to have all of those abilities be A-Tier, but because you choose to do that, then you should deal with the word count of training.

Djinn

Training Djinn stages only requires 7,500 words, and not all of that needs to be done all at once. Extreme Magic adds 3k to that, making the total 10,500 words. To say this needs to be reduced is ridiculous seeing as these items are important to site lore. It’s like wanting to reduce Omega Trial WCs, which are equally important, due to laziness or the desire to rush through and obtain power with relative ease. No vessel has been broken yet, so worrying about a repair WC seems a bit silly, but we can just slap a rather high huang value along with a small word count to bond with the new vessel to cover for that if people really want.

Magic Weapon Spells

For a grand total of 15k words, you can train an Omega-Tier magic weapon with five spells (if Omega weapons existed, Vardreth is the only one that has done this). Taking out 5k then, the total would actually be 10k words, which is about 2,500 words above djinn training (not including spells because you don’t have to have all Djinn spells be A-Tier, which means you could buy them), or 500 less if you include Extreme Magic into Djinn training. This needs to be reduced. Rather than basing the WC on the number of spells tied to the Magic Weapon, just use normal spell training WCs.

Repairing

People are so worried about their items breaking and having to deal with the word count process of repairing them. Since this is a concern, we could dock a portion of the word count down depending on the amount of huang spent. Basically, the more huang you spend, the less you’ll need to write to repair your broken items.

I think Jobs should be the thing least touched, if even touched at all. I think Class Training is fine. Currently it is the easiest it has ever been to acquire XP.

There is a difference between "we need to adapt" versus "yeah let us cut everything cause we do not want to write so much anymore and go post based which still has a word count but we don't acknowledge that it does".

Jaja comes with a point however I think to reward the creative and clever writers. I do not think he means grading quality of the content, but perhaps we should throw around ideas. Lower word count or post based does not reward the creative and clever, and the well written works on the site. If we lower WC, hopefully not everywhere, look into the idea of threads of the month for the various regions. It can be a dual duty of a News Mod to moderate the threads of the month. It incentivizes people to be more conscious of what they write, and write in under written boards. Threads of the month can be rewarded with extra huang, XP, or more.

You will need a News Mod who is set on not being biased, but they can choose the obviously best written threads, and put them up on a poll to be voted on by the community. There is a decent amount of us who read threads we know writers have put effort into, I know I do. Some characters have very engaging stories in their threads.

On the topic of quality above quantity, my point is that more words is not a real way of challenging players. You will gladly accept 10k words of irrelevant garbage and fluff as much as you will accept 10k words of the finest literature.

For the matter training is not the central focus of every or even most characters. On magi we will spend majority of our time training unless we ignore the lack of abilities.

Laziness has nothing to do with this. I personally know just how long it took [redacted] to complete their training. Some of the best words on here btw. However this is a roleplay website made for fun. I am not willing to spend a majority of time painfully grinding out words that inevitably will only be slapped into a word counter and skimmed over.

I do not believe that a story is made greater through simply it's size. The size of a scene in actuality does not improve it's enjoyability to read or the depth it adds to a story.

The idea that it does is strictly something born from old roleplay culture. In 500 words I can create something equally if not greater than a 2000 word post. Forcing myself to extend scenes, and add irrelevant scenes destroys my narrative and just makes me push bad content. I will 100% stop before I produce bad content.

Also. Just for the sake of being clear.

We recieve huang through jobs primarily, other than that you might sell a item. Regardless at some point. To earn the huang you would have paid a price in wc for it's equivalent.

And furthermore

We have just bought items that are stronger than normal abilities. Quite literally it is not an argument that we don't already pay for power in huang.

I believe my point I have made over and over though still stands. If we have it post based, raise the minimum word count of posts, there is still a word count. It only restricts players' freedom of how to structure threads.

I think if it becomes about purely writing a story, and all of the game aspects of roleplay are forgone, we do not need a site for that. It can be a fan fiction site. However, I believe the nature of roleplay has game like aspects to it and is unavoidable. There will still be a hidden word count underneath the veil of post based.

I would strongly suggest the of the month threads. I want us to rid of the notion that the works on this site are to always just skim over. I believe we should reward those who go an extra mile and wish to brighten the site with rich writing. One only objection I imagine would be had over this would be that a mod has to look over it. There is plenty of mods currently however.

We have many talented writers who should not just be skimmed over or ignored, such as Neo, Jaja, Zub, and more. I say it is worth a shot to try it out at the very least as a suggestion.

The issue with grading threads is almost all times its objective and popularity based not even the quality of writing. For example, someone could have perfect writing but reading it is like reading a textbook, I personally don't like writing styles like that, I like being hooked and pulled in and a lot of people just write perfect boring posts. Sometimes the fact someone doesn't have perfect writing but had the ability to draw you in with drama or the way they write is what can make a story good, I do agree though some of the word counts are extreme most novels being 50k and some things require that amount if not more for training only and not even rewarding you for making a good story. I stand by what I said cut the wordcounts in half at least, as for training a rank or below abilities either remove the wordcounts or cut them down a lot, you can only have so many a tier skills anyway no reason to restrict them behind wordcount.

So I lost my post first time I wrote a response to this so I'll keep this short:

1. Trent. Freeform roleplays have existed probably longer than you have been alive. It is simply false too believe that all roleplays inherently have to have game aspects. This is a belief that comes from being on pvp/ttrpg based forums.

2. You don't need to raise the minimum word count of posts. This is almost a mute point.

3. Sara, writing that is text book like is inherently imperfect. That is not what I describe as good writing. What you are describing is just boring.

The guidelines I would personally grade any passage with and that I plan to on my own forum are:

Prose
Vocabulary
Imagery
Drama
Use of technical skill (referring to usage of literature devices, poetic techniques, etc)

The very last thing I would consider in this grading is the word count. Because the word count does not directly influence the quality or enjoyability of writing. Anybody can bullshit the wc.

I would reward points to each of these categories and have multiple staff review/reward it themselves. (Just set a fair number 2-3)

Then I would allow players to use those points to get more advantages for their own characters. Abilities, traits etc.
Furthermore I would make it as much of a viable source of progression as shitting out a wc can be. Points should be useful for obtaining abilities, items or plot. At that point maybe it would be worth spending the copious amounts of time to create GREAT content.

Lastly. I am starting to feel like this is more personal for many of you. Are you all holding on to the word count for the sake of the quality and enjoyability of the forum? Or are you all trying to limit/stall the progression of your peers to suit your own egos? Just a thought

I wouldn't say the existence of word counts is to hinder our peers. Those who managed to make it this far in spite of it are to be commended, in terms of writing abilities and maintaining interest in their own character. A decision will be made tomorrow in regards to anything changing at all.

Diana mentioned that this isn't a full time job or anything, you write for fun and enjoyment. There are things you can potentially earn, and we have ways to go about it. At the same time, if you aren't willing to put in the work, you won't get some things done.

Dramatic changes will never be enacted like wc being gone completely, more likely lowered In some capacity or something else to compensate for it.

There is no real personal grevience towards others in why it needs to exist, it's just our representation of a person's effort, as well as an inherent limited that says " these things take time " and the progress to that shouldn't be rushed. That's what I believe.

Lagi you can't speak for everybody staff was in my dms on some bs over my opinions on the matter yesterday. I do not believe that this is entirely neutral anymore.

If you all desire value and love word counts if that's the bar you measure your efforts and value in... I can't relate.

My efforts and value are related to how powerful the final product I create is. For that reason this is an inefficient system for me.

I dont understand how 200 vs 100 words would limit how someone's post structure?

I will be writing a more detailed NO WC example later today

I think it is ridiculous to try and make a site that is very deep in structure, literally everywhere, to just become freeform. It would simply not be the same site.

Also, I explained it in my previous posts Julius, but I will break it down further.

If you increase minimum word count from 100 to 200, and make things post based for completion rather than word count, there is still a word count, you just now force players to put it into multiple posts. Even if you do not raise the minimum, why should players be forced to break up their threads for the sake of posts? If they want separate posts for the thread, they can do that. However, say the minimum word count is 200, and you need 3 posts to complete a B-Tier job, that is 600 word count. You do not get rid of word count with post based, rather it is just forcing a now lower word count into multiple small posts. Writers should be able to just put all of it in one post.

As far as no word count goes, I think it is a ridiculously radical idea. This site was built on structure, and a lot of it. Perhaps if it was a new site, you can do it, but with Magi World I find it ridiculous and far too radical. I think the consensus is slightly lower word counts all around the site, and some word counts need to either be rid of completely or lowered dramatically. I think that is the most middle ground option.

It should not be an easy task to get from point A to point B either for travel. I believe travel was brought up. If Merrze is still working on what we talked about for Wanderers, you all should be pleased with travel for Wanderers. That was just a side thing I wished to bring up.

I would like to hear the opinion of Merrze if he wishes to share what he thinks.

An edit into this post to respond to Jaja speaking on certain players wanting to stall the progression of others, I just want to say that it is not in my intention whatsoever. I am starting a new character myself, which is more like my new main as I RP Trently less now. I would doubt that Lagi's intention is to try and stall player progression as well.

I made the RP Together Event for a reason. It is to foster new strong player characters, who are rewarded for RPing with each other. I wanted to give new players a better chance than ever to grow and reach their great potential on the site. So, no, this has nothing to do with stalling progression. It is a genuine discussion.

In regards to the ego thing: If someone's ego is elevated due to how strong they are on an RP site, something is wrong. We are all merely people playing and writing characters.

We shouldn't have to write travel at all that is a huge waste of time. I'm sad anybody ever thought that was clever.

Mind you Im not pushing for no wc. I specifically want ability training lowered.

Trently, I know that many of us would love to project that our egos are not attached to our characters but HISTORY has proven otherwise. It is simply not true. Even you have done plenty of dirt over petty Magi drama

I digress.

Though honestly travel wc is pointless. I honestly believe you are the only person who enjoys writing it. Literally every other person will exclusively fast travel. There is not a single pro to travel wc.

At one point the site was much bigger. So travel wc and limits were made to stop players from being b everywhere at once. Looking back, even at that time it was pointless. Now that we have only a handful of players, forcing us to write travel is completely ludicrous.

Literally a wc is attached to anything they could have thought of.

So Trent I have no idea where the idea of having a post requirement for threads came from. This is how it would work.

For a job, you task is to let's say for instance help a lil old lady deliver some good to some folks around her shop.

You write the doing the job, as long as you clearly start do and end the job it can be 3 post, 1 post 10 post it doesn't matter. The lift from 100 to 200 for a min word count would simply be in place so that people don't be dickheads and do this crap.

Example:

Waking up Knuckles stretched and yawn, it was early in the morning about 7 am. Looking out the window of his apartment he could see the morning traffic already starting within the town. People where heading into work and already gather materials and items they would need for the day. Some would even be women and children on their way to their food stand to setup for todays sells. Wow, it really looked like a great day, with the sun shining and the perfect amount of wind to keep it cool. Getting out of bed he would complete his orders for the day.

This is what would happen if we left it at 100. At least at 200 words some effort would have to be put in. But if you cheesed it like the post above you would get paid small amount of EX or Huang, or an even smaller amount of both.

It would let people put as much effort or work they want into their own work, and if the people who write amazing stories do let's say the same job as above, they will likely get a good bit more for rewards because the effort they put in.

So pretty much the more work and effort you put into a thread the more you're going to get rewarded. Remove Jobs giving a set amount of EXP/Huang and u make it a grading scale which will cover How well was it written, was the task accomplished, was the post entertaining or easy to read or was it they just wrote the minimum to get the task done. With this EVERY thread would then become available for Exp/Huang rewards. Social topics, jobs, PLOTS, training, etc. Then you pick what reward you want when you submit it. Either XP, or Huang, or both. Each one Huang and XP will have different amounts given what kind of thread it was and what you did. Since EXP on site is as Merrze has put it "Life Experience" it would make since to get that XP from threads that aren't jobs.


With this gone are the days of having to figure out how to write a large word count if all you want to do is train to upgrade your abilities or class. I mean I, myself, have pretty much written doing the same thing over and over again for class training, going some where and swinging my sword 1,000 times a day, then the Next day practicing the swing on targets, etc etc etc. Why not just make a thread and RP out training the damn skill or writing out learning a new magic type or working out to increase stamina or what have you and be done with it?

This allows the GRIND feel that member have an issue with to vanish while at the same time rewarding those who do more.

Travel threads, I still think they should be a thing, however I would be okay with them gone as long as you're locked into 2 places at once. And all threads are ended before moving from one to another, travel threads were pretty much how we kept an eye on this, it was how we found a member trying to do Coli matches while not in Reim. Maybe make a thread where people just post "Currently In Reim and Kina, traveling from Reim to Helio. New Locations Helio and Kina" IDK but we got to do something about keeping people from being all over at once, I also think we need to limit players to 1 character per event. They can be in different events, just not multi characters in a single event/thread We have no rules on this, but thats another thing totally. I've got myself off track sorry.

But yea this is how the NO WC system would work in a simple explanation , obviously there is more to it but this is the general idea. Tech there is a WC of 200 but thats pretty simple.

Okay, after reading this over, and thinking about it, I can say I am actually for something like this now. For once, I actually change my mind on a topic. You presented it very well, Knux.

I think content amount by words should still be a factor in the reward system, cause say it is high quality and a larger than normal amount of it, it should be rewarded better. By how much should the rewards be depending on words? I don't know.

However, I think there may be biases among staff when grading. I do not how this would be avoided, but I suppose we can just try and put trust in staff. Not only this though, but staff like different kinds of writing. If you do this kind of grading, I recommend you give certain genres or styles of writing to different people to grade. Neo I know would be highly critical of my work, while someone like Diana, Jaja, or Merrze, may like my writing and story telling a lot.

I highly urge anyone who was on the word count boat to think about it again, cause I think Knux brings up a fair argument to the word counts. I do not know though how I feel about a 200 word count. I think it could be on a case by case basis with 100 being the minimum but not what is expected of in a post.

So just put disclaimers that 100 is not expected for any job, and 250 at least is expected for a job. 200 seems rather low to me. So if a player wants to write 125 words into two posts, let them.

Wouldn't something like that still be biased grading?

It can be biased, I won't lie. Staff can work on it, work on their biases and figure it out though. It can be a great way of having this site host great content rather than great content sometimes, and a lot of fluff, cause seemingly for some they write mostly fluff for word count. I have no qualms writing substantial material for word count and little fluff, but encouraging good writing I think is good.

If we can't have this, I rather we just have lower word count in some aspects of the site, not all. I think the measure by which you earn XP should not lower, like if we made all wordcounts dramatically less. If you focus on quality over quantity, and players focus on writing better, rather than writing more, the measure by which you earn XP is not lower I feel but around equal.

To counter act bias we can have a 2/2 grade system.  

So staff member 1 comes looks at it puts 1/2. Submit in staff what they think the member should be awarded based on their writing. Staff member two reads it and either agreed or disagrees. In situations where there is a disagreement Admins put in their view and rewards are given from that. Maybe not the best but we can diacuss it further.