[POLL] Divine Staffs vs. Metal Vessels

Here are some threads to refer to:

• Suggestions for Divine Staff
  
• Djinn, Dark Metal Vessel, Household Systems
  
• Old Djinn, Dark Metal Vessel, Household Systems
  

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A few weeks ago, I decided that I would allow a Magician King Candidate to obtain a Metal Vessel and obtain their Full Djinn Equip aside from having the Divine Staff.

This was a decision I thought would make this system fair and it was fine until today when some staff members decided to disagree. We argued for a little while and came to a conclusion to ask the community.

Everyone, feel free to post your points and vote in the poll. Please, refrain from arguing within this thread. I will review the discussion as it goes on to make a decision.

Personally I believe that certain planned systems are pretty legit, if I understand them correctly;

That is to say, both non-magicians and magicians can obtain a metal vessel, or a dark metal vessel, although magicians pay double cost. I believe this for a couple reasons.

The first of which is due to the fact that many dungeons have been captured by magicians already. This is a forum-based canon continuity that cannot be refuted. Examples:

Yakuroro, the previous admin, obtained the Djinn in the first dungeon.
Zadi, a magician at the time, obtained the third dungeon
Azix obtained the sixth dungeon


Honestly, I would have liked to have seen them be able to retain their metal vessels, cuz they earned them, while still retaining their status as a magician with the changes in the system. Unfortunately this was not a thing because it was recently changed to only allow non-magicians.

The Magi-based canon of this is that it is due to the magic that magicians have that they cannot easily merge together with a Djinn due to the conflicting natures of their magic.

There are also balance concerns with the fact that some races enjoy an advantage in magoi level while others suffer (magicians have the most, fanalis have the least).

The magi-based canon can be explained away in 2 ways - 1 of which is that we are an Alternate Universe site. Things never worked exactly how they did on Magi. The second of which is you could potentially say that Ugo has interfered with the way the world works, allowing for this fusion to be more stable.


With all that being said, the balancing of it from a forum standpoint will be explained below. Base classes will not be taken into account, because it has never been the intention for a base class to be capable of facing a King Candidate without a metal vessel of their own. This will strictly be KC v.s. KC. I started the below description of the systems thinking that the systems are fine as-is, but as I crunched the numbers and took into account other variables, my stance slightly changed. I think the current system for it is pretty good, but I also think there could be some slight tweaks to it. Please read the below:


With the double cost of Djinn, I think this is a good place to be for balancing Magicians having the capability to use a Djinn while also respecting precedence in forum-based canon.


If we take a look at the numbers, we'll look at the most extreme gap - Fanalis and Magicians.

A Fanalis Warrior has the least base magoi at A-Tier, with it being 90. The Fanalis Ranger has a larger amount, due to the bonus first rank of ranger that grants a bit of extra magoi than it does stamina, which would give them 130.

An A-Tier Magician has 400 magoi.

Weapon equip is 10 to activate, 5 to sustain for Fanalis. Djinn equip is 20 to activate, 10 to sustain.

This provides a Fanalis with the capability of 6 base posts to sustain this Djinn equip, with 14 base posts to sustain the weapon equip.

Magicians have 2x cost, which gives them 17 base posts to sustain the Djinn Equip and 37 base posts to sustain the weapon equip.

Let's forget about the weapon equip for now.

Magicians cannot absorb the magic element type, but Fanalis can, so Fanalis can get an extra 50 magoi to work with. This gives them 11 posts in their Djinn form, whereas a Magician has 14 posts in their Djinn form.

With only a 3 post difference, the disparity is not deep enough to give magicians any inherent advantage in combat. Remember that after the Djinn equip is done, each person will only have 10 magoi left (enough to not incur the worst penalties of not having enough magoi). Magician's primary capabilities lay in using their magoi to cast spells.

The Fanalis will still have his 410 stamina.

Remember, Djinn users don't need to use abilities too much as their basic attacks count as A-Tier abilities. There may be some things a Fanalis must respond to - tricky attacks, or incredibly powerful attacks from multiple sources.



Now, this isn't to say Magicians have an absolute disadvantage. While they cannot use their own magic in Djinn form, they still have the Djinn's magic. With higher base magoi, they can afford to use strong abilities (omega-tier) without worrying about the impact to their magoi as much as Fanalis would to counter with this.

Magicians are still capable of sustaining for more turns in Djinn equip form, so if the need arises they can simply run away if they fear for their life.


Now, this is all from a PVP standpoint. This board is not pvp-centric. If a player had their sights set on a PVP interaction, and that was a Fanalis player, then they could purchase Blessings of the Rukh which gives them another advantage over Magicians (Magicians cannot purchase Blessings - https://magiworld.forumotion.com/t72-blessing-of-the-rukh-150000-huang) and this would give them an extra 5 posts in Djinn form, allowing them to reach 16 posts if they can absorb Magoi.

To add onto that, a PVP-centric player would also get an A-Tier trait to give them another 80 magoi for a total of an extra 8 posts in form. That's 24 posts for a Fanalis warrior.

Magicians would likely get the same trait, though it would only grant them an extra 4 posts in that form, for  a total of 18 posts in Djinn form.

If you look at it this way, Magicians would have an imbalance in capability I suppose, because their primary fighting strength lies within their use of magoi. I think you could potentially call for a tier down in magoi costs for magicians in both djinn and weapon equips.

15 magoi/10magoi for weapon equip and 30 magoi/20 magoi for Djinn equip. This will mean that a Magician has a total of 22 posts in Djinn form, whereas a Fanalis would have 24 posts in Djinn form. A bit closer, I think. It's true that this means a Fanalis would have to try harder to PVP a Magician king candidate insofar as traits and blessings is concerned, but I think this would be fair to both classes considering the points above.


Overall, though, the balance between these two is not incredibly important. Like mentioned earlier, PVP is almost non-existent on this forum. Couple that with the fact that Djinn users are rarely active, and you get the perfect storm in which this wouldn't be considered too big of a deal.

Even so, it wouldn't hurt to even this out a bit.


If any staff members have any concerns about the number crunching above, or wanted to solicit solutions to problems they see in my above suggestions, please feel free to drop me a pm and I would be happy to help out further if the members of the forum and yourselves believe this to be a viable option moving forward.

ok What the fuck!

THATS TOTALLY NOT FAIR

WE as magicians have every right to the divine staffs it's only fair. I honestly don't care about the metal vessels we honestly don't need them BUT! Think about this. MAGICIANS ARE LITERALLY THE WEAKEST RACE IN THE GAME NEXT TO IMMUCHAKK. The Offensive Magicians aren't even strong untill maybe B tier. BUT MAGICIANS LIKE LEST don't mainly have offensive Magic! If you take away the divine staffs that is literally the most unfair thing you can do. Is it right that everyyone except magician can get a djinnno again we don't need metal vessels because really and truly what's the point if we have divine staffs , staves, and wands. HOWEVER THE MAJORITY OF YOU WISH TO TAKE THAT AWAY BECAUSE YOU THINK WE ARE SUPER STRONG AND OP WHEN WE AREN'T!Literally one hit from a Fanalis and We're virtually dead, A HUMAN CAN KILL US EASILY! RANGERS SHIT ON US if they combine it with their stealth stealth! Immu's now have the Berserker Trait I made that they can take if they see it fit and with that Immu's may just overtake the Magicians in sheer power NOT TO MENTION THAT THEY TAKE REDUCED DAMAGE AND WHAT DO WE GET BUT EXTRA MAGOI THAT NO OTHER RACE USES EXCEPT FOR US ON A DAILY BASIS!. Like seriously can you guys think this through before voting because sometimes stuff like this is why Trump got elected into office =.=

You can argue that some magicians like Adra are strong as all hell but thats only until A-tier and we worked hard for it. It's unfair that the collective populous wants to shit on magicians because they themselves think we're too strong. This is DIRECTLY affecting me and sure as hell you can bet I'm against this. BECAUSE YOU ALL ALSO GET BLESSING OF THE RUKH WHICH MAGICIANS CANNOT ATTAIN!

However to be Very honest as long as we have the Divine staffs we don't need the metal Vessels!

HOWEVER THINK ABOUT THIS!

If you take away Divine staffs, You will in turn give give staff a way to put magicians on equal footing with those who wield metal vessels. As it is unfair we don't have them. However given the chance at this there is a strong possiblity you guys voting to get rid of divine staffs will only make it worse on yourselves. Magicians migh possibly become the strongest race depending on what staff decide, SO by all means go ahead, just make sure you thought it through before you vote.

(Also personally i think some people fail to realize the process of voting and how logic applies to both sides and you need to think of every angle and what can happen in the future. It's not just "OH I've never liked this so i'm voting against this." Its "Oh I know I don't like this but what purpose will it serve for everyone in the future?" THAT'S what voting is about.)

Magicians are the strongest race. That's an objective fact.

As for forum canon, it's already been retconned so none of the magicians who conquered dungeons had metal vessels(or in Zadi's case, was never a magician to begin with).

Magicians are too strong with access to metal vessels. The Divine Staffs getting buffed is fine, but swapping them for metal vessels or giving access to metal vessels as well is going too far.

So, with that reasoning, the math Vardreth gave us means absolutely nothing, simply because "Magicians are the strongest race. That's an objective fact." I'm not going to sit here claim magician's are underpowered in any way, but other than their access to creativity in abilities, that's an incredibly unfair claim. Again, I understand the immense amount of power a magician can unleash, but the other classes aren't as weak as you try to make them out to be with that logic.

Warriors get access to Magoi Manipulattion, which is easily the most abusable kind of ability on the forum, due to it allowing the user to lock someone out of magoi or knock someone out of a Djinn equip with ease. Beast Tamers get access to a Ω-Tier Legend Beast, aka a creature of mass destruction. Something that I can only assume is capable of dealing Ω-Tier damage with just it's basic attacks. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Simply buffing Divine Staves could be the way we handle it, but other than the fact a Divine Staff in concept is sort of lack-luster, it also kills the fun aspect for Magician's who conquer a dungeon. Why punish Magician's out of a Djinn-Equip simply because they are a magician. They might not have had to go through the kind of plot a Magician striving for a DMV has to go through, but they still had to traverse a dungeon. Pretty much one of the most dangerous things a user could go through, so again, why punish them for it. Also, don't take my usage of the word "punish" out of context, as I mainly mean it in a...more fun aspect. Sorry, not trying to start anything! I just wanted to state my opinion on the whole matter.

The main argument against Divine Staffs have been that they’re lame or are just glorified advanced staffs, or they’re just not canon and Magicians should get nothing. Yaku had changed the systems to make it more canon while not taking away from Magicians that have already conquered a dungeon. There have been a couple of suggestions to buffing the Divine Staff. One being that they are allowed to create one Omega-Tier ability, which would be the equivalent of an Extreme Magic spell honestly. Unfortunately, I’ve forgotten any other suggestions. But let’s look at the Divine Staff for a moment.



Half cost on all spells of the same type as staff

If you were to have a metal vessel/dark metal vessel, all your abilities as a Magician would be locked and you’d be limited to either non-Magician abilities (Ranger, Body Manipulator, Assassin, Warrior, or Beast Tamer) and the Djinn related abilities. Having half cost on spells of the same type can technically mean you can cast more spells, especially if said magic type was one that you had a lot of spells at your disposal already (like if Adrastos received a water divine staff since his primary is water magic and he has a lot of water spells).

Access to full power upon receiving it

Being able to access the Divine Staff’s true power means no extra word counts in terms of training. You get all the perks of the Divine Staff upon acquisition, unlike the Metal Vessel which you have to train to unlock more of its potential power/other forms.

You can absorb your magic type for 50 magoi, or, if you have a combination magic, you can absorb any one of the magic types that make up that combination magic for 25 magoi.

If you compare this to the metal vessels and dark metal vessels, the fact you can absorb one of the magic types in a combination magic is pretty unique and useful. Afterall, if you had the metal vessel or dark metal vessel, you’d have to absorb the combination magic in its entirety.

Access to Borg and all other magician spells

As mentioned before, a magician wouldn’t be able to access their magician abilities. They can with the divine staff, and better yet, they have access to the Borg, their natural defense. The Borg can also recover 3 posts after it was broken, which is something it couldn’t do in the old systems.

A-Tier magic function of the Divine Staff’s theme

Alright, so this makes the divine staff seem like a glorified advanced wand/staff or magic weapon. But magician’s are the most powerful class on the forum, or at least one of them. Many will say that the divine staff deserves an extreme magic like the metal vessels and dark metal vessels, but what some forget is that metal vessels were created so non-magicians can be on par with a magician or magi.

Omega-Tier durability

This is the item durability the divine staff starts off with Omega-Tier durability. Metal vessels and dark metal vessels have B-Tier durability. I don’t see many people breaking the divine staff, especially with the magician’s borg still being usable.

No Extreme Magic

Alright, so this makes the divine staff seem like a glorified advanced wand/staff or magic weapon. But magician’s are the most powerful class on the forum, or at least one of them. Many will say that the divine staff deserves an extreme magic like the metal vessels and dark metal vessels, but what some forget is that metal vessels were created so non-magicians can be on par with a magician or magi.

No Passive Flight
No Djinn Forms

Being able to access the Divine Staff’s true power means no extra word counts in terms of training. You get all the perks of the Divine Staff upon acquisition, unlike the Metal Vessel which you have to train to unlock more of its potential power/other forms.

No Households

There are some that feel like magicians should be able to have a household, yet a majority of the player base want their own djinn/households, leaving only a fraction of other players that actually want to join in a household. As of now, there are no household members and the only King Candidate that has had a household in this site’s history is Azix Niraj, the conqueror of the Plague Dungeon. That being said, there’s not much of a big deal in that regard (plus magicians can still join households)

Vardreth has made many good points, most revolving around a prototype that was/is in the works among two staff members. Fanalis will always be able to use their Djinn the least, and that’s how it’s suppose to be, even in canon. However, there is also very little PvP scenarios that have occurred in the site’s history, and though it could happen in the future, it’s not too much of an issue.

In short, the pros outweigh the cons. I believe that any modifications that needs to be done should be focused on fixing errors that cause confusion or perhaps making what we already have better. In one instance, there needs to be clarification on whether or not Magician Dark King Candidates are allowed to have households. As it reads now, it says that "Magician King Candidates may NOT have a Household." Does this include that Magician's who obtain a DMV are not allowed a household? It's that sort of confusion that needs to be remedied within the systems that we have.

I believe people have misunderstood what I mean!

I was talking about earlier on. My post got erased because I hit backspace. so you guys got the short version =3=
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Again, sorry for butting in when I'm not active, butt I think I have a simple solution;

We should host an OOC tournament in order to determine which classes need buffing/nerfing/etc., know what I mean? I've seen stuff like this done before and the results are worth the effort. We could have prize money (aside from bragging rights) if not enough people volunteer because a balancing tournament needs participants from all sorts of character builds.

So yeah, a tournament to settle the balancing issues, if there are any. Just a suggestion, I'm not gonna directly talk about this subject because of how divisive it seems.

Zadi wrote:Again, sorry for butting in when I'm not active, butt I think I have a simple solution;

We should host an OOC tournament in order to determine which classes need buffing/nerfing/etc., know what I mean? I've seen stuff like this done before and the results are worth the effort. We could have prize money (aside from bragging rights) if not enough people volunteer because a balancing tournament needs participants from all sorts of character builds.

So yeah, a tournament to settle the balancing issues, if there are any. Just a suggestion, I'm not gonna directly talk about this subject because of how divisive it seems.

As much as I understand the point behind your suggestion, this isn't really about classes. This site doesn't see much PvP except for rare events, whether IC or OOC, and maybe the occasional friendly joust. Which was what Vardreth has stated previously. Even if there was a reward, I don't see many people participating in said tournament due to them not being into PvP.

@Rima, I said magicians are the strongest race with such conviction because I intentionally made them the strongest race when I remade the systems. As far as I know, there haven't been changes to the systems that alter this. That said, I didn't make any comments about classes, which are what you are talking about. I think you might have misunderstood my post because I said nothing to suggest any other class is weak. I did not even mention them, or any race other than magician for that matter. I apologize if my wording gave the wrong impression but all I said was that magicians are the strongest.

@Neo, when I said giving magicians metal vessels again was "going too far" I meant that I felt buffing Divine Staffs or some other alternative would be a better course of action if people are really dissatisfied with the current set up.

I'm not sure why you are asking whether or not I'd tell admins that future changes are also going too far. This thread is asking for member opinions and that was my opinion. As a member of the forum, I have just as much right as anyone to voice my opinion on changes to the forum.

@Zadi, that suggestion may have been better made in a different topic. But I would participate in such a tournament if it were held during a time where I have the free-time to actually be active. Make a new suggestion thread for it and I'll post my support for the idea there.

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Also, I don't think Divine Staffs should get Omega-tier magic/Extreme magic. Part of the balance in the system is that magicians are the strongest across all ranks until metal vessels come into play and that is the trade off. Being the strongest but lacking access to the strongest obtainable power. Metal vessels are supposed to be the big trump card all other races have against magicians. If a magician can do everything a Metal Vessel user can through a Divine Staff, then you may as well just give them metal vessels. But doing so would make magicians even stronger and break the balance that allows other races to match and exceed them in the late game.

Magicians could still beat MV users without extreme magic of course and vice versa. Player skill is a big factor to consider under the current systems. I'm simply comparing raw power and combat versatility.

So my only thing i kind of what to see is a Magician with a Djinn Equip. I heard that it was a amazing site to see. Soooo umm, could like a Divine Staff have like a Djinn Equip? Just for the appearance part and imaginary pov.

^ I actually like that idea!

I agree with Duquin on this one. Magicians have supreme creativity when it comes to abilities, and inherent damage mitigation in the form of their borg. In a one on one fight of equal tier, a magician should come out on top, barring magic items or djinn.

Not to mention access to flight gives them the potential to simply sit on high and rain fire on their enemies. Literally.

Personally, i don't see anything positive coming from giving magicians access to Djinn Equips. At the best, this becomes a neutral development, but i don't see how.

Please send in your votes for a more solid tally.

If you want to suggest anything or are confused about the options -- please send it to me in a PM here or over Discord.

Aseo wrote:So my only thing i kind of what to see is a Magician with a Djinn Equip. I heard that it was a amazing site to see. Soooo umm, could like a Divine Staff have like a Djinn Equip? Just for the appearance part and imaginary pov.

This was a suggestion made by me that the user of a divine staff could choose to if they want to show off some body effects if they wished relating to their divine staff's powers, in my honest opinion the current system does its job but just needs clarification of some points, such as magician's getting standard DMV bits and certain wording in divine staff text to clarify it.

I've updated my previous argument and made it more presentable