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Class Balance Topic.

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1 Class Balance Topic. on 07/03/18, 09:44 pm

Eight

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I have seen the topic of class balance getting thrown around much more often these last two weeks and personally, I don't like just discussing an issue over and over again without a solution.

So here we go.

There are three ways as far as I can see to balance the classes. For

1. Balance
2. Fun
3. Accuracy

1. Balance being that characters have equal access and/or a system of checks and balances.

2. Fun being a system that just promotes class versatility and creativity.

3. Accuracy being as true a portrayal to the reference as possible. ( Which, in my opinion, is a bad way to run things because this is a different media. This is not the story of a single person but a collaborative work. )

That being said,lets go into the pros and cons of EVERY CLASS.

Magicians.

Pros.
Magic.
Access to all 8 magic types.
Combination Magic starting at C rank.
Rukh Sight
Borg

Cons.
Magicians Constitution.
1 Staff per Thread.

Review.
Their cons are really both a wash. Magicians Constitution is wiped out immedoately by obtaining a second class, which everyone will get. And while it may seem that the staff limit is good, their actual weapons are the elements. They have 8 base weapons and they can be combined. And there is no limit. But one weakness seems to be if you break their one staff they are pretty much useless.

Proposal.
1. Clarify Rukh Vision Racial trait. If you are blinded, can you still see rukh? Does this work in overlay of your regular sight?
2. One staff limit doesn't make sense and is a huge, unnecessary and unfair weakness. This should be bumped up to two.
3. Combined Elements should be unlocked at B-tier and need a cap.
4. Limit the amount of elements a magician can learn. ( I suggest to four+Clairvoyance by Omega.) (Remember, each element is a weapon type essentially, and there will be less overlapping of play element choices,which makes them more meaningful.) I don't know the manga or anime like I should but for the sake of fair game play and when we introduce magi PCs, they can have an extra kick and gives magicians a goal that arent djinn. In fact, I propose we remove MV from Magicians and give them Magi status, which unlocks the 8 elements plus whatever. I feel DMV should stay available for magicians.
5. No point in Magicians constitution unless we have PC Magi.

Warriors.

Pros.
Normal Weapons.
Magoi Manipulation.
Parry.
Unspoken rule that they are the martial arts master.
Most compatible with Djinn because of weapon-based abilities.
Shields.

Cons.
4 Weapons or Shields per Thread.
6 Magoi Manipulation Abilities.

Review.
Magoi Manipulation... why is this a warrior only thing? Why is parry a warrior only thing? Why are martial arts a warrior mostly thing? Yay shields.

Proposal.
1. Magoi manipulation being a warrior only thing hardly makes sense. This is a counter to magic, being held in the hands of warrior
2. Parry being a warrior only thing hardly makes sense. This is a magoi manipulation counter. Being held in the hands of warrior.
* I feel one or the other should be moved to other classes. If we move parry to assassins only, we have a nice Rock-Paper-Scissors trinity. Warriors counter magicians, magicians counter Assassins, and assassins counter warriors.
3. Magoi Manipulation ability limit doesnt make sense to me. This should be lifted.

Assassin.
Pros.
Unorthodox Weapons.
Medium Range Missles.
25 medium Ranged Basic attacks
Misc. items such as poisons, and smoke bombs.
Stealth
5 Weapons.

Cons.
None Really. Just Weaker Pros.

Review.
Assassins are pretty close on the mark. However, ranged weapons, while I feel they are necessary for Assassin, they encroach heavily on rangers one aspect.

Proposal.
1. Give Assassins Parry.
2. Explicitly allow use of orthodox weapons and martial arts, unarmed and otherwise.
3. Remove or lower amount ranged Basic attacks, allowing them to keep ability medium ranged abilities.

Ranger.
Pros.
Long Range.
Tracking.
Senses.
Camoflauge.
A Hunting Knife.
25 Ranged Basic Attacks.

Cons.
Um. There is a reason almost no one plays them.

Review.
Hunting Knife? Really? Same amount of basic ranged attacks as Assassin? If if one is medium and one js long ranged, does anyone really distinguish the difference?
Also, doesn't this seem awfully close to assassin? Except instead of crazy weapons, it's long ranged weapons?

Proposal.
1. Hunting Knife is dumb. They cant even creat abilities with it. We already have rules in place to allow players to use weapons from other classes without creating abilities.
2. We should give ranges no limit on ranged basic attacks.
3. Access to guns. D tier would be like a bb gun. C tier could be the equivalent of air soft. B tier could be like a blunderbuss, and A could be like a real rifle or cannon.
4. We could create a Rock Paper Scissors structure with Ranger, tamer and BM and give rangers traps that are particularly effective vs beasts.
5. Give rangers like ooc knowledge.

Manipulators. Which we should rename to monsters and give them more story relevance and a certain abhorrence, beyond that of magicians.

Pros.
Creative as fuck.

Cons.
Shitty until A.
Finally good at Omega.
No healing which is a trait of the human body.
No extra appendages. Come on.

Review.
The scaling is shit. They are kind of fine otherwise. They get double trapped. By tier and by limb. Not allowing extra appendages or healing is kind of lame. I mean, logically, healing should be allowed imo. And if I wanted extra appendages, I can just split my hair as much as needed. Just let them have extra appendages as per ability rank should determine.

Proposal.
1. Give healing, til A rank, but abilities must be specific types. Stab wounds, organ wounds, vs. Poison.
2. Extra appendages.
3. No limb limit, which can be bypassed by using organs. Is hair a limb? Does that count as head? Spit counts as torso?

Too lazy to do tamers. But they are popular and powerful but it is mitigated by only being allowed to take up to omega tier beasts aka two a tiers etc. They probably need a nerf.


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2 Re: Class Balance Topic. on 07/03/18, 11:04 pm

Ariel

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I have a few things to say. Especially about magician class. Surprise?

Magicians

As my main character is a magician, this is a class I am quite familiar with. Magicians were designed to be the most powerful class in the game. This also tends to be the class that attracts people who tend to do more plotting than combatting. So despite its strengths, I've never found it to be as threatening given the majority of magicians tend to not combat at all/very little + the freedom which magicians allow does tend to cause less creative/beneficial/combat-ready/etc. abilities being made - something I'm very much guilty of. Of course, I'm not saying all magician abilities are useless or uncreative, but at the same time parameters not too strict and not too lenient tend to encourage creativity - at least in my experience - more than boundless worlds. And to me, I do find that warrior and body manipulator classes have the most creative abilities.

  • [ Magic ] The thing that sets magicians apart from all other classes is their inherent ability to use magic without the usage of magic tools. Furthermore, they may also learn all eight magic types as you pointed out. However, do keep in mind they can only learn all 8 at Omega-Tier. As of yet, only one (active) person on this site has reached omega-tier.


This is quite literally their only pro if I'm being completely honest. All the pros you listed can just be placed under 'magic'. But despite them only having one pro, thanks to how much it includes and how versatile it allows magicians to be, in terms of potential I'd say without a doubt magician have the most of. Now, of course, the problem is the fact that their potential is not often used to its fullest (or as far as I've seen anyway) which does help balance out their pro of being able to use magic.

  • [ Stamina ] You seem to be forgetting something. Namely, stamina. Because after all, a magician at Omega-Tier with an A-Tier stamina trait can get a total of 200 Stamina. Which, by the way, is the same as a B-Tier human with a ranger class - without any stamina traits. A human ranger - a combination with the second lowest stamina in the entire system. So while yes we can get physical classes, our stamina does limit us a bit. Of course, we also have a copious amount of magoi and magic to cover us so I guess that isn't as much of an issue. But in terms of physical abilities for magicians, we are limited in that area.



Addressing Proposals:

  • [ Combination Magic ] Combination magic isn't determined by your rank - it's determined by the ability's rank. The reason you're allowed to create combos at C-Tier is that by then you can create B-Tier abilities.

  • [ Magic Types ] Let me just be frank - if we decide to limit magicians to four magic types I will revolt. Why, you ask? Because the magician class is not generally speaking a class of natural combatters. I'd say most of us chose magician [for our main] because of the freedom and how fun we could get with the magic types. (I don't say all because I, of course, can't speak for every main magician on the site.) It would honestly just suck if we were limited to four magic types. This is a class that revolves around its versatility - that's what makes it so appealing. Furthermore, keep in mind you could be screwing over some awesome plans we might have by limiting to four magic types. It would be a shame if all the potential magic combinations thought up went down the drain.




Okay, so before I dive any further, I'm gonna say that doing an analysis on any of the physical classes alone is going to be very difficult. The fact of the matter is, your race depends a lot as well. So I'm just going to address your proposals.

Warriors

  • [ Magoi Manipulation ] Honestly, what would make the most sense if Magoi Manipulation was more race based than class. So Humans and Imuchakks would all gain access to magoi manipulation. As Imuchakks were shown to be masters of magoi manipulation, they should probably have a boost (i.e, maybe they can register more magoi manipulation abilities). But there is absolutely no way magoi manipulation can have their limit lifted. Can it be increased? In the future maybe. Completely lifted? Aha ha ha ha... While it may not make complete sense from a logical/realistic point of view, the purpose of this limit is for balancing sake. Magoi manipulation abilities have the ability to completley shut down a magician. It would utterly disrupt any sort of balance and make magicians completely weak to warriors (I mean, they already are supposed to be their counter). Especially if you want to restrict magicians to only four magic types.

  • [ Parry ] The reason parry isn't given to Assassins, is, in my opinion at least, because assassins aren't a class that is supposed to necessarily engage completely head-on. They're more strikers than tanks or whatever. They're supposed to use the element of surprise over direct combat. Now, however, I do think it could be possible to give body manipulators the ability to parry by hardening their bones and then... well, parrying. The ability may have to start at C-Tier just to parry D-Tier attacks since it would probably be considered a Defensive/Supplementary ability however.




I could talk about the other class proposals but meh, those are the only points I really care about addressing. The other's just don't matter to me because they a) repetitive / already addressed the issue, b) I'm sure other people would be better addressing them anyway.


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3 Re: Class Balance Topic. on 08/03/18, 12:15 am

Eight

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Response.

1. Magic.
Magicians are supposed to be the most powerful class. They are, even with ONE element, tbh. Do we want them to be even more powerful than the Canon version?
Gonna list Magi and wiki the elements they have used.

Aladdin. (MC)
-Heat
-Water
-Wind
-Light
-Lightning
-Gravity/Strength

Judar.
-Ice
-Gravity
-Lightning
-Wind

Yunan.
-Gravity
-Lightning

Scheherazade
-Gravity
-Lightning.

Titus (200 years of Experience)
-Gravity
-Water/Ice
-Heat
-Wind
-Strength
-Light

Sheba
-Life

These are all magi. Why make magicians stronger than that? 4 elements + Clairvoyance still giving them the goal of attaining magidom.

2. Stamina.
Firstly, its 220 Stamina.
Yeah and Fanalis have 20 magoi per rank. With an a tier trait and warrior primary (Which people actually pick),  they get 190 Magoi. (With a chance at 240 magoi with blessing of the rukh for huang)

3. Magoi Manipulation.
As in your example, a human hunter primary then taking warrior for magoi manipulation.  Has at max 430 Magoi.
Compared to 560 Magoi from a magician. A magican would simply outlast a humans magoi reserve. Also you specifically say Magicians around here arent fighters. So why not at least allow the warrior to defend themselves should it come to a fight.

4. Parry.
A parry is exactly what you said. Not engaging head on. Where a warrior could use a shield, an assassin would parry. How else should an assassin defend himself?

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4 Re: Class Balance Topic. on 08/03/18, 12:35 am

Just because you can use more elements does not make you stronger or as strong as a magi. Just listing off the types of magic a Magi has used in the series isn't really proving / doing much. Generally magicians on our website will do the same thing, they will typically stick to a couple of magic types and call it a day, or at least that's how I've always done it. I'm not saying that I won't expand my character's magic move-set to give me better coverage, but you should understand what I'm getting at.

A magi is without a doubt capable of all magic types, even if they didn't show it in the animanga. Talking about Titus having 200 years isn't really that big of a deal either, considering Yunan has had MUCH more time than that, yet only has shown to use two separate types. (Which I should mention, he used a technique straight from one of Sinbad's djinn, Bararaq Saiqa.)

IMHO, I just don't think limiting a magician to less types is going to do very much. If anything, it might even end up creating a sort of tier-list for magic types. Because if you ask me, some magic is stronger than other types. -- A good example IMO, is comparing heat magic to light magic. Light magic would be much faster and more reliable on getting on burn damage, blinding people, stuff like that. (Not to mention it can create hallucinations + defensive barriers.) Strength magic is known to be the strongest of all types in terms of raw force, not to mention the fact its practically invisible to non-magicians. Sound magic is near-unavoidable. Then there's life magic, and life magic is straight up OP if you ask me. Creating life AND healing capabilities? -- I just wouldn't want people to feel like they're forced to take certain magic types. It's already bad enough forcing people to choose between one type and clairvoyance, when imo clairvoyance should just be a type you pick-up through plot. (Mainly because the magic-type is pretty much only useful in plot situations. Well, most of the time it is anyways.)

Edit: Speaking of magic types / combination magic though, I'm still interesting in adding Neo's system for that. Essentially, it would force a magician to type a WC for each magic type they're learning (the WC would increase with each type.), this includes combination magic.


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5 Re: Class Balance Topic. on 08/03/18, 09:31 am

Ariel

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About how one would outlast the other - maybe when using magoi but magoi isn't the only thing a human can do. Furthermore, it really only takes one magoi manipulation spell to completely debilitate a magician. They don't even need to be able to register a crap ton of magoi manipulation abilities. It's not like magicians where the main highlight is their almost limitless potential.

And BTW, here's a little thing I'm sure you should know already - parrying is a technique that is used when you've engaged your enemy. Assassins aren't a class designed to engage the enemy. See, that's the thing. Classes like Rangers and Assassins are way more limited in terms of the role they can play. They have a more definitive niche, unlike the other classes. If I'm being completely honest, it's probably why they aren't as appealing... But y'know what? Assassins aren't barred from having some defensive abilities. It just wouldn't be parrying. Could you block an enemy with a dagger? Sure. Could you catch it with a pair of daggers or something? Sure. But parrying is a warrior-exclusive ability. It's never bothered me however because there are alternative ways to defend. Just use your brain and you can come up with some pretty creative shit. Assassin class, in my opinion, is more about finding creative ways to solve the limitations you have more than any other class. Hell, they literally have trick weapons. No, the assassin class may not be powerful in the traditional way - but you should honest to god never underestimate the class of the assassins.


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6 Re: Class Balance Topic. on 12/03/18, 04:41 pm

Being previously a magician I would say that they are the most versatile class by far, your only as weak as your own imagination. Parrying is almost a necessity for a warrior when fighting a magician or opponents that have range ability.

As it stands now I would say Magician is the number one class on the site period, I would have stayed it if it allowed my to stay Imu Race. However getting off topic with personal past issue lol but magoi manipulation I could see as every class but what I would do is to have it set at different difficulties like more magoi or stamina use or less based on the class you are and the type of ability you are trying to use (More reliant on body then magoi or reverse.)

However if not a magician I will say that Warrior would be the most common thing to second spec into, as it gives you the most benefits if you are not a warrior. So beast tamer/warrior or ranger/warrior/ or assassin/warrior would always be the most common way to go in terms of perks.

)Note I really really miss my Imu magician/warrior lol)


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