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Ability Balance and The Place of AoE's

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Vodarara

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Ability Balance and The Balance of AoE

Since my original return to the site, I have always doubted the current place of Area of Effect Techniques/Abilities. I have argued in the past that they were overpowered in there current treatment in regards to both Direct and Split Projectile attacks.

With current mechanics and the logic based clashing system there is little to no point of using Direct attacks, this is due to how Area of Effect attacks interact with the target in comparison to Both Direct and SP attacks.


AoE - On hitting a target completely, an AoE attack at B tier would deal B tier full body damage - Furthermore to this it would deal B tier ability damage to all equipment that creature is currently carrying.
While it can hit everything on a single individual, it can also hit more than one person within that Area of Effect and deal the exact same effects.
Furthermore, due to the general nature of AoE’s being more fluid than Direct and SP techniques it also makes them incredibly hard to “reasonably” block or parry.


SP Attacks - Split Projectile attacks fill a similar idea to Area of Effect, bar that they feature an attack that could arguably be used to interact with multiple people in a larger area than an AoE - However with this function for every split they make they have their damage reduced.
In doing so it also reduced the required damage to destroy them, for example under clashing rules currently a complete split (8 ) A tier Ability would be able to be blocked by a D tier AoE effect.
Unlike AoE when interacting with equipment and players they only deal the damage to what they hit - if they hit your equipment and no you then it only deals damage to that


Direct Attacks - Direct attacks are single entity attacks that carry their full power. These in the current standings are the weakest of all technique types. They interact with equipment and people in the same fashion as a SP attack but will be far more effective at dealing damage overall either the a creature/character or the equipment.


Now for my suggested changes and interactions:

We should look at each attack type as its own single entity - you should only be able to have Direct, AoE or SP - This means no SP AoE techniques (those type of techniques are significantly broken and break what I believe are the intended design)

My belief in the interaction should be that AoE is the hard counter to SP. However, AoE should be vulnerable to interactions with Direct attacks. Finally, Direct Attacks should be Useless against SP techniques.

How I would do this: I would suggest that we move to Reducing the Technique Output of an AoE effect by 1 tier - This would mean no D tier AoE Techniques. This would balance AoE against the smallest of the SP Techniques
In doing so allow for an A tier Direct attack to pass through an A tier AoE and still carry B tier Technique damage onto the target.
By doing this an Extreme Magic AoE (Omega) would still be lethal by dealing A tier full body damage. However, at lower tiers it would become less effective against direct forms of attack and be far less lethal to groups than it currently is.

I believe in making this change, it will help shift away from the standard AoE focus meta. While we still have other features to investigate (Magician’s having access to Seeking attacks, I believe that can be remedied with enhancements to the weaker classes)

We could look at allowing Direct attacks to carry more features than AoE’s and SP type attacks but that could be a further extension if this suggestion - if implemented doesn’t bring AoE into line with the other technique types.


Please ask queries below and feel free to post comments.


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Greyfield

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Note: I have zero pvp (and RP) experience so your opinion is probably more founded than mine.

The way I see it, the current systems are “okay” the way they are. That’s not to say there isn’t imbalance or that the classes are equal, far from it actually. Just that I don’t think it’s something that immediate action needs to be taken on.

That said I don't think suggestions are a bad thing and I’m inclined to agree with you, more evidence would be nice though.

To my knowledge, this isn’t a pvp site so meta balance isn’t really a problem … is what I would end on but to me it seems like the average RPer on our site doesn’t mind pushing their 『Battle Power』 as far as they can get away with.

I don’t have any solid evidence (and haven’t read many pvp posts) but it seems like as far as pvp goes a fair amount of people want the power to vaporize their opponent if they so much as sneeze wrong.

Now if I recall correctly you prefer to write your abilites in line with how you see your character.
I won’t argue its absolute spot among the classes,but I do recall mentioniong to you something rangers would have access to at higher tier abilities (maybe even D-tier depending on traits) that make it notably more lethal than some people may assume assumed.

But focusing on the “Meta” you mentioned,I think that might be a defining thing to consider.

There are probably tiers of power.

The previous admin has stated (probably on record somewhere too) that magicians were written to be the strongest class (This is probably true but you never know).

All the heavy hitting is coming from magic. Magic is going to be hard to deal with without more magic since well it's Magic. I could go on about this for a while but back to AOEs

You may be confounding the strength of AOEs with the strength of magic,especially since the new combat systems are (supposed) to be logic based. Here are my (beautifully named) tiers and what I think would be the examples for AOEs in each.

Gone Plaid- Where plot and extreme magic would go ( City wide tidal waves to warping space and time.)

Battle Tendency- Pretty much all magic* in this tier with a few feats massive feats or strength/skill. Magic is basically impossible to clash with without more magic. EX: Damaging waves of gravity, bursts of cutting air, an Iron sand shredder, ETC

Street Fighter- Where traits, tricks and simple magic are defining factors, here people could throw huge rocks, use shrapnel and gas explosions. Magic AOEs are tricky but can be dealt with. EX: Scattering mirror dust on a light beam, blocking a wave of strength with brute force.

Joe Schmoe- Actual fights between skilled opponents with nothing fancy, AOE’s are more potent but still can be dealt with logically. EX: someone throwing a ball that explodes into caltrops. It would have a logically sized range and caltrops would not have their own individual potency meaning they could be batted away fairly easily.

Puny Hooman - Fights between weak human level opponents with nothing fancy, AOEs might be a throwing dust in eyes or something similar.
*-Legend beast would probably go here.

To me it seems AOEs are only “OP” when they are magical, otherwise anyone who is specked for battle has a fair shot with dealing with the rest of them. Since the system is logic based you should be able to shoot right through a shrapnel/ caltrops explosion and anyone with C-tier+ strength logically has access to something study enough to deal with plenty of AOEs.

TL,DR: Yes, Magic AOEs are strong, they’re magic so they’re going to be tough to deal with without more magic.The best thing way for dealing with something out side your tier is not being there,

Those are my comments. I apologize if I missed something you were trying to focus on.


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Vodarara

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I think you neglect what I say - this is in regards to our clashing rules. If you read them and then review against AoE and the fact they tend to for any class be either - gas clouds, explosions, fire breath and shockwaves.

These are not necessarily going to be magic based - this is why they are overpowered.

You state that magician's have been stated to be overpowered - yes this was correct. However, we intentionally prevented Magician's down the line from having Djinn outright - the reason for this being having a Djinn or Household Vessel was what you needed to crush a Magician.

Now I wasn't pointing this towards classes. Any Area of Effect are extremely powerful due to the nature of them. They cannot be blocked or parried very easily by direct attacks and are extremely effective against Split Projectile attacks.

Rather think of this if a single sword slash is X energy of the same tier - It only interacts with one target. Whereas an X energy of the Same tier AoE can hit numerous targets, how is that in any way balanced.
Thats the fact it isn't but rather gives you a massive advantage against current logic based clashing.


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I'll give two examples how AoE works and hope that can explain that it's not too broken unless it's magic:

If I hit you with a giant fireball, your whole body and anything on you will obviously take damage. It only makes sense. The giant fireball might be hard to negate or get rid of due to it's nature. Even if you casted a full body magoi manipulation spell, you'd still get roasted in seconds. But for instance, Zadi has an ability where he can blow a gust of air that dissipates flames and gases. That could work.

If I hit you with a rain of arrows, only the parts of your body hit and exposed weapons / items will take damage. It only makes sense. A rain of arrows can be blocked with a shield, magoi manipulation, or whatever else you can think of.

EDIT: Though, y'know... the way I put it, it really isn't that bad. Lol.


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Greyfield

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Voda what I was saying was I agree AOEs are stronger than the other types of attacks, I just don't feel any action needs to be taken.

Like in the examples Diana gave, it is possible to have the tools to deal with and/or completely negate them, until you get to the stronger magic, for each class. (Unless blast wave based attacks are easily acessible, thoses are kinda impossible to block without magic)

I would think (could be wrong) that most explosives normal RPers have access to would be low powered in todays standards so the blast waves would be not be the really cause of damage.

So say someone throws a fireball at you, it would have negilible mass so

A warrior (like C-tier) with enough strength could kick up a dust cloud large enough to blow it away.

A ranger with enough strength could shoot a projectile heavy enough to create a similar dust cloud.

A magician could use magic (with wind magic you could create a vacuum that extingushes normal fire, this would work until the spell ends).

An assaassin could use a fan to blow it away.

A beast tamer could have beasts that can do any one of these things and more.

And a body manipulator could blow it away.

AOEs damage multiple targets like you said but IMO they are the most suspectible to being flat out negated. You can't really negate a regular direct or split projectile attack through normal means I would think you either have to clash or dodge.

To repeat, I do agree AOEs are the "Strongest" I'm just not sure if anything really needs to be done to change them.

P.S: Remeber I have no RP comabt experience, just my thoughts on the matter.

(I apologize if I somehow missed your point again.)


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Vodarara

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I apologise for my delay in response.

The best way for me to explain this could be through Healing rather than Damage.

For example an AoE heal could heal multiple people and all limbs. Whereas a direct heal would should only heal one limb. However, both of these have the same cost but the AoE has greater effects.

You could argue:
The risk of an enemy exploiting the healing AoE - To which I would argue in doing so they are forcing themselves into a limited space to receive the healing and leave themselves open to attack from the friendly in the heal.


Sometimes people state that the damage from a direct may only affect one limb because that makes "sense" but for example what if you get hit in the side of the shoulder. That could penetrate all the way to the "chest" etc.


Now I did speak with Garret and it was sort of said that it was an unwritten rule that AoE's could not deal damage to equipment. We could enshrine this rule, in doing so weaking AoE's against equipment (he also said that you could do the opposite of having an AoE only hitting equipment and not harming someone). This a small-restriction which would weaken AoE's from Its As Written State.


That would be my suggestion for now otherwise, we could look at tier nerf's if we want it to deal damage to both the character and equipment.


Otherwise, we could consider that an A tier AoE is more lethal than an A tier Direct or A tier Split Attack. This is because it hits multiple limbs. A Direct attack that demolishes say your arm might not kill you (i'd argue it would put most characters bodies into shock or out cold from blood loss etc). Whereas an A tier AoE hits you welp no way to sacrifice a limb etc your just gone.


(In the past i did try to argue that a shockwave/sonic wave based arrow should be able to disrupt certain effects and was turned down on it)


It feels what is being suggested here is oooh use AoE to counter AoE (that just shows its broken as you can't think of any direct effects or benefit to direct). The issue is that a energy burn of X value can do significantly more as an AoE than a direct or split of X value.

This is due to it not being downscaled for the benefit of hitting additional targets. So why does split attacks get nerfed into the ground when it is split ? because AoE doesn't suffer from that. In which case then if a Split Attack is brought to parity then why doesn't an A tier direct attack just tear your arm off even if it doesn't hit you like a 50caliber shot will.


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